Swhack! 18 April 2005
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00:53:21 <AaronSw> This seems like a silly principle to me.
00:53:39 <AaronSw> I tried to get myself to write a blog entry daily, but only because I had so many ideas and never sat down to write them up.
00:58:41 <deltab> an interesting typo: "fllopy"
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01:02:56 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's Talliesin!
01:03:51 <xover> .gc sleepd
01:04:04 <phenny> sleepd: 8,230
01:04:17 <xover> .gc sleepeth
01:04:30 <phenny> sleepeth: 33,500
01:05:27 <sbp> and I have the same thing; where did it go wrong for you?
01:05:35 <sbp> I mean, I've already written 3500 words
01:05:43 <sbp> my problem is that I never like any of it
01:07:39 <themaximus__> *** themaximus__ is now known as themaximus
01:25:01 <sbp> I wonder if there's a School of Wombling anywhere?
01:26:36 <sbp> "Ever tire of income tax, period pain, hatred in society, stupid right-wing governments, Fatboy Slim, the hole in the ozone layer, and having to write weblog entries? Why not become a womble! The Wimbledon Common School of Wombling excels in allowing its students to achieve their maximum potential at being a womble!"
01:27:01 <sbp> enroll today and receive a free gift voucher for a 25% price cut at Borders
01:27:03 <sbp> blah blah
01:27:14 <sbp> terms and conditions may apply
01:29:00 <AaronSw> i think they'd be a lot more likely to have that if there was such a thing as a womble
01:29:37 <sbp> which they do, so... I'm missing your point
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01:31:30 <AaronSw> how many times do I have to explain this? they're puppets. or suits. or something
01:31:40 <sbp> rodents, I think
01:31:58 <AaronSw> heh. amazon: The first Womble families of the United States by G. H Womble
01:31:58 <sbp> I don't think it's ever clearly explained. wombles could be from an entirely new species
01:32:04 <sbp> hehe
01:32:12 <AaronSw> the point is in real life, they are not real
01:32:17 <AaronSw> its _fiction_
01:32:28 <sbp> sure they are. Jim's seen them on Wimbledon Common
01:32:35 <sbp> and they've been on TOTP
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01:33:21 <AaronSw> well, so has Strong Bad and that doesn't make him real
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01:33:45 <sbp> Strong Bad's been seen on Wimbledon Common? hmm
01:33:46 <sbp> he was probably tidied up pretty quickly though
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01:33:53 <Monty> hey xavier
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01:34:14 <xover> @ChanServ--
01:34:51 <sbp> it is particularly good at being a craphole, yes
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01:36:28 <deedra> {global notice} Hi all! I really really apologize for that. that is completely my fault. I was fixing the firewall on one of our hubs and messed things up. things are back to normal now. Again I'm really sorry. thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
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01:37:20 <sbp> at least he apologied
01:37:22 <xover> OhBTW; Björn is insane! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2005Apr/
01:37:29 <sbp> that wasn't Bjoern
01:37:42 <sbp> [23:59] <bjoern_> HELP!
01:37:42 <sbp> [23:59] <bjoern_> Some crazy moron is impersonating me on www-svg!
01:37:42 <sbp> [00:01] <JibberJim> he's doing a good job, even getting character encoding's right...
01:38:00 <sbp> why on earth aren't you in #svg?
01:38:17 <AaronSw> that doesn't seem like the kind of thing anyone would impersonate
01:38:46 <AaronSw> i mean, honestly. the number of SVG 1.2 criminals is ... 0
01:38:48 <xover> Can't stand to be around XMLish SemWebby places for too long at a time. Note absence of #rdfig et al as well.
01:38:49 <sbp> why not? a bug from an experienced bug reporter may be more likely to be addressed than from a random stranger
01:39:01 <sbp> you wouldn't mind #rdfig actually
01:39:12 <sbp> (everybody's in #swig now instead)
01:39:30 <AaronSw> argh. iMovie HD doesn't do quickstart
01:39:39 <sbp> and #svg is basically just bjoern, jim, robin and some others prattling on about whatever. pretty harmless!
01:39:48 <AaronSw> nistky harmless
01:39:50 <AaronSw> err mostly
01:40:09 <AaronSw> ruined that joke
01:40:15 <AaronSw> I think if I reported that many bugs, I'd want credit.
01:40:16 <sbp> nah, I liked "nistky"
01:40:44 <crschmidt> * crschmidt prattles
01:40:48 <sbp> I think if you send more than fifty emails in sequence to a W3C mailing list, they ship you off to sibera
01:40:54 <sbp> oh yeah, one downside: crschmidt's in there
01:41:08 <sbp> which, I grant, may be enough to dissuade you from entry
01:41:10 <crschmidt> yeah
01:41:10 <sbp> but still consider it
01:41:18 <crschmidt> i guess i'll just leave then
01:41:21 <xover> crschmidt: 404 on the email link in the BaZ0ring post (DAV/SVN issue?).
01:42:11 <sbp> * sbp wonders where Sibera is... MN? OK?
01:43:06 <sbp> "Conservative emerges as favourite for papacy" - Independent
01:43:20 <sbp> not content with being a strong candidate for UK government...
01:43:42 <crschmidt> xover: banz0ring?
01:43:53 <AaronSw> Heh, wouldn't it be funny if Siberia was in the US...
01:44:12 <AaronSw> man, that'd be a tough one to explain
01:44:12 <sbp> From U.S. Gazetteer (1990) :
01:44:12 <sbp> Siberia, IN
01:44:12 <sbp> Zip code(s): 47515
01:44:23 <xover> crschmidt: http://crschmidt.net/noets/96
01:44:43 <crschmidt> yeah, i killed that svn branch, forgot about the link, will put it elsewhere
01:45:04 <AaronSw> we have a city named everything
01:45:17 <AaronSw> [cue to give everything's zip code]
01:45:26 <sbp> heh
01:45:29 <sbp> I did check
01:45:34 <sbp> ironically, you don't have everything
01:46:25 <xover> Hacking the Papal Election (by Bruce Schneier): http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0504.html#8
01:46:25 <swhacker> posted 750
01:46:27 <AaronSw> Capitalist: You should be thankful you live in the US of A. If you were in Russia they'd be shipping you off to Siberia right about now!
01:46:27 <AaronSw> Worker: Uh, but I do live in SIberia.
01:46:49 <crschmidt> xover: http://crschmidt.net/random/banzoremail
01:47:24 <xover> 750::As the College of Cardinals prepares to elect a new pope, people like me wonder about the election process. How does it work, and just how hard is it to hack the vote?
01:48:42 <xover> crschmidt: ta
01:50:32 <AaronSw> Security Notes From All Over
01:53:25 <sbp> hmm. deltab once said that every character is valid in unix filenames except for NUL and /
01:53:38 <sbp> for a while I was thinking that a single "." isn't valid either
01:53:50 <sbp> but I suppose it's just the case that there's already a file of that name in every directory
01:54:20 <AaronSw> I wonder if that's really true or an illusion
01:54:29 <deltab> yes, though maybe not stored on the disk
01:55:33 <xover> An artefact of the filesystem, surely?
01:56:14 <sbp> any more than a "real" file is?
01:56:50 <sbp> you mightn't be able to open it up for editing, but you can't open /dev/null for editing either. and actually you can edit it using mv and touch etc.
01:57:12 <xover> No. But there are filesystems that don't provide ./.. entries.
01:57:29 <sbp> can you create ./.. files on those systems/
01:57:37 <sbp> s!/$!!
01:57:41 <sbp> er
01:57:46 <AaronSw> :-)
01:57:51 <sbp> s%s!/$!!%s!/$!?!%
01:57:53 <xover> As I recall, yes.
01:58:03 <sbp> cool
01:58:26 <AaronSw> this is unix still? how do you go to the parent directory? not possible?
01:58:46 <sbp> they're probably just called , and ,, :-)
01:58:47 <AaronSw> can a directory have two parents?
01:58:56 <xover> Not UNIX, no. ANd not even POSIX I expect.
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02:00:00 <AaronSw> UNIX-based?
02:00:07 <xover> (it was a VMS box, and an ancient ND500 running SINTRAN, I was thinking of)
02:01:43 <xover> Then again, the ND500 didn't have subdirectories — only top-level, no nesting — so I guess that may be an ideosyncracy.
02:02:33 <xover> * xover tries to recall how more recent (i.e. non-ancient) VMS deals with this...
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02:16:23 <xover> Yeah, looks like it's the filesystem that implements `em: http://lxr.linux.no/source/fs/ext3/namei.c#L106
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02:46:12 <bancus> I'm getting seriously pissed off at CSS.
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02:46:29 <bancus> How the fuck can a relatively sized inner element grow larger than its parent?
02:46:35 <bancus> Only with CSS!
02:47:44 <bancus> (And how this happens with only padding/margin resizing is beyond me.)
02:50:20 <bancus> or why this part of this border likes to randomly disappear
02:50:33 <bancus> although that seems to be a gecko bug
02:52:06 <Arnia> bancus: That's a long standing CSS bug with Gecko
02:54:00 <Arnia> bancus: And none of that should happen with CSS unless you direct it... remember the box model measures element width in a way that is slightly counter-intuitive but more apt for rendering
02:56:05 <xover> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-CSS21-20040225/box.html> and <http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-CSS21-20040225/visudet.html> will probably be elucidating here.
03:03:41 <bancus> arnia: yeah, I've studied the box model
03:04:11 <bancus> but, as far as I can tell, setting relative widths shouldn't cause the box to excede the size of its parent
03:04:31 <Arnia> bancus: What renderer? Is this Gecko?
03:04:31 <bancus> but width: 100% does just that, when I set paddings
03:04:35 <bancus> gecko, yeah
03:04:49 <bancus> I have to width 99% if I want .5 em padding
03:05:01 <bancus> and it still doesn't look quite right
03:05:04 <Arnia> bancus: Do you have a margin set as well?
03:05:05 <deltab> that sounds wrong
03:05:53 <bancus> for any element, I have either margin or padding set
03:05:54 <bancus> never both
03:06:07 <bancus> margin I use on outermost elements, padding on the ones inside those
03:06:22 <Arnia> That sounds very very wrong... I wonder if a bug has been filed
03:06:34 <Arnia> Mind you, they're very slow to fix CSS bugs for some reason
03:06:46 <bancus> yeah
03:07:02 <bancus> I think I'm going to scratch this design anyway
03:07:10 <bancus> http://home.surreality.us:8080/
03:07:15 <bancus> that's what I'm working on
03:07:30 <bancus> a rails-based webcomic app
03:09:41 <Arnia> Ok... try and see what the width should be
03:10:03 <bancus> hm?
03:10:15 <Arnia> Basically work out the formula (of multipliers to the first fixed width) that the browser should be using
03:10:30 <bancus> width of what?
03:10:43 <Arnia> The element that is misbehaving
03:10:51 <bancus> ah
03:10:56 <Arnia> There aren't any bugs filed about this, so I think we need to eliminate a CSS bug
03:11:06 <Arnia> As in, a bug in your CSS
03:11:13 <AaronSw> hm, that page repeatably crashes Safari
03:11:39 <Arnia> AaronSw: Try turning CSS rendering off and seeing if it still does
03:11:56 <bancus> 75% of viewport size, minus 4 pixels (2 pixel wide borders), minus .5em
03:12:12 <AaronSw> does that page have ads?
03:12:16 <bancus> nope
03:12:50 <Arnia> bancus: So you're using every unit system under the sun ;)
03:13:16 <bancus> I use what works :P
03:13:29 <bancus> I wouldn't be using that 75% if it weren't for the fact that IE doesn't support display: table
03:13:45 <Arnia> bancus: My thoughts are that this is either a unit system rounding error (similar to what causes the borders to be lost in Gecko) or you've got an untraced interaction in the CSS
03:13:48 <bancus> I don't want it to suck up all the available width
03:13:59 <bancus> arnia: I've put one of them back to 100%, look now
03:14:06 <bancus> the title of the strip should excede on the right side
03:14:28 <bancus> exceed?
03:15:53 <Arnia> exceed
03:15:56 <bancus> k
03:16:06 <bancus> * bancus has a love-hate relationship with English.
03:17:04 <AaronSw> You know what annoys me about album art? It's a form that's completely impossibl to break. Everything you can think of has already been done. Photo, drawing, words, no words, blank, colored, -- everything
03:17:13 <AaronSw> you'd have to like make it a sculpture or something to shock people
03:17:28 <bancus> Or make it a moebius album cover.
03:17:44 <AaronSw> maybe if the cover was actually an LP?
03:18:02 <bancus> make the cover out of colored sand
03:18:09 <bancus> have to be careful in shipping though
03:18:27 <Arnia> A glass cover?
03:18:44 <bancus> it'd still shift about
03:19:29 <Arnia> Do child selectors work in IE now?
03:19:37 <Arnia> For that matter, does max-width
03:19:51 <bancus> not a clue
03:19:54 <bancus> IE doesn't work in ubuntu
03:20:24 <BigJibby> child selectors no, max-width yes
03:21:05 <Arnia> Its min-width that doesn't in IE then...
03:23:10 <Arnia> Uhh... this CSS looks like it was written to be small
03:23:25 <Arnia> Write it expanded, and *then* compress it down
03:24:03 <Arnia> Its too easy to mis-specify when you're trying to generalise selectors
03:25:06 <bancus> written to be small?
03:25:16 <bancus> can can be compressed a hell of a lot more than it is
03:25:26 <bancus> I wrote it as I went through each page rewriting it.
03:27:56 <Arnia> Yeah, but you're using loads of child selectors to generalise bits and bobs
03:28:25 <Arnia> Try rewriting it in chunks... style each bit of the page from top to bottom depth first
03:28:34 <bancus> I, uh, did.
03:28:41 <bancus> This is the rewrite.
03:28:47 <bancus> The older CSS was all table-based.
03:29:04 <bancus> The child selectors are supposed to make it more specific, not more generic.
03:30:05 <Arnia> You've used body > div to put max-width on everything. That is more generic than body .mainmenu, body .nav etc
03:30:42 <bancus> That's because I don't want any top-level div to be bigger than a certain percentage.
03:30:55 <bancus> If you look, I specify lower max-widths on the specific stuff.
03:31:10 <Arnia> Yes... but do it for each top level div individually
03:31:17 <bancus> Why?
03:31:18 <Arnia> To start with
03:31:30 <Arnia> Because it means you can see the interactions better
03:31:37 <Arnia> That is what I mean by writing it to be small
03:32:01 <Arnia> Compress it down later, once you know all the interactions... you'll be able to get it smaller anyway and it will be easier to debug
03:32:20 <bancus> I kinda plan on throwing it away later anyway.
03:32:59 <bancus> It's clear that current CSS support can't do what I had with the table layout.
03:34:08 <Arnia> Uh... I'm pretty confident I could do that layout
03:34:26 <bancus> the original table-based layout?
03:34:33 <Arnia> Show me it
03:34:38 <Arnia> There have been only a very few layouts I couldn't do with CSS
03:34:41 <bancus> I'm not sure I can.
03:34:49 <bancus> oh, it can be done with CSS
03:34:51 <bancus> display: table;
03:34:55 <bancus> but IE doesn't support that
03:34:56 <Arnia> And those have been perverse any way
03:35:01 <Arnia> No, without display: table
03:35:07 <bancus> O-o
03:35:20 <bancus> I wonder if I can unrevert with darcs
03:35:36 <Arnia> Do it to another folder if you can
03:35:47 <Arnia> And use baz ;)
03:35:55 <bancus> bazaar?
03:36:11 <Arnia> Yes... I've written a Nautilus integration for bazaar
03:36:24 <bancus> I thought bzr wasn't ready for prime-time yet?
03:37:12 <Arnia> bzr == bazaar-ng
03:37:17 <Arnia> baz == bazaar
03:37:23 <bancus> oh
03:37:33 <bancus> I didn't realize that they were two different things
03:37:36 <bancus> okay, the old layout's back up
03:37:38 <Arnia> baz is tla with a more sane UI
03:38:12 <bancus> does it still used the cracked out filenames?
03:38:47 <Arnia> You mean the canonical naming scheme? Yes... it uses that (and I've come to see it as a good thing, even if its a holdover from pre-URI days)
03:38:56 <Arnia> That's easy to do with CSS
03:39:10 <bancus> how?
03:39:25 <bancus> using auto-margins (the only way I know how to center a div) makes it suck up all available width
03:39:27 <Arnia> Along the same lines you'd been doing
03:39:58 <Arnia> You've just got an interaction you haven't traced (which may be symptomatic of a bad structuring in the markup)
03:40:27 <bancus> :/
03:40:53 <bancus> I'm about this far from just saying "themes will comprise the view directory" and going back to my tables
03:40:58 <bancus> it was less trouble
03:41:16 <Arnia> Less trouble for you
03:41:24 <Arnia> And you'll have to learn how to do this eventually
03:41:34 <Arnia> The learning curve can be steep, but its necessary
03:41:45 <bancus> I had these problems even when the CSS was very, very short and only one table
03:41:49 <bancus> er, one div
03:42:09 <bancus> Not being a professional web developer, I don't think I really have to learn it at all.
03:42:32 <Arnia> Are you in the EU?
03:42:37 <bancus> Nope.
03:42:41 <bancus> Why?
03:43:26 <Arnia> If you were in the EU then I'd say that you had no choice really. Accessibility requirements basically rule out tables for everything bar tabular data
03:43:46 <bancus> They have laws about private web sites?
03:43:58 <Arnia> Any site that provides a service currently...
03:44:11 <bancus> That's kinda screwy.
03:44:53 <Arnia> Nope. Its about stopping people being disadvantaged (which is what government should do... level the playing field so that things beyond your control don't fuck up your life)
03:45:21 <bancus> What about the disadvantagement of the cost of learning this arcane black art that is CSS?
03:45:55 <deltab> you're free to invent something better and convince people to use it :-)
03:46:03 <Arnia> Its not arcane, its not a black art (its easier than tables if you actually think about the markup) and its a one-off cost
03:46:10 <bancus> I have no ambition in that direction.
03:46:22 <bancus> But I have been thinking about the markup!
03:46:39 <bancus> It's not like I just wrote it up out of my ass.
03:46:57 <Arnia> Your markup is full of classes when you should be using IDs
03:47:05 <Arnia> Its also full of divs
03:47:16 <Arnia> div-itis is as bad as using tables in many cases
03:47:23 <bancus> what else should I use?
03:47:25 <Arnia> Use a semantic element where you can
03:47:50 <Arnia> XHTML gives elements a standard 'semantic' role
03:48:03 <Arnia> <h1/> should be used for first level headers etc
03:48:53 <Arnia> This is what thinking about markup means. You should be working out what information is being conveyed, rather than the visual rendering of that information that sighted readers will see
03:49:19 <bancus> Most of what's there doesn't apply to any existing tag.
03:49:36 <bancus> Pretty sure there's no "comment link" tag, or "side menu" tag.
03:49:52 <bancus> <h1/> is about the only one I could be using and am not
03:50:04 <bancus> but using h1 seems silly when I've only got one type of header
03:50:41 <Arnia> If you have a list of links, you're meant to use <ul/>
03:50:55 <bancus> check out my menus, and I do
03:51:03 <bancus> (except in the comment links, I haven't converted that yet)
03:51:53 <Arnia> Good. Right, now you have to structure your markup in as few layers as you can. Put an element inside another iff the semantics of the parent apply to the child
03:52:33 <Arnia> Once you have a good markup that makes sense even without your custom site CSS, then and only then begin styling
03:53:03 <Arnia> (in case you're wondering why I'm pushing this point so heavily, these are all just methods to make sure you have as few interactions as possible when you finally begin styling)
03:53:05 <bancus> I don't see where I'm not doing that.
03:53:55 <Arnia> Then, you begin styling. First turn the page heading H1 into your logo
03:54:08 <Arnia> Then layout the header
03:54:39 <Arnia> Then move down the page, chunk at a time. Don't touch the selectors you've already defined and define the previous selectors as precisely as you can
03:56:08 <Arnia> When you reach the bottom of the page, if you still have bugs then we can actually figure out if your bug is a renderer bug or a bug in your CSS. Given that there isn't a complaint about this issue yet, and your design is pretty simple and common, we must rule out a bug in your CSS before we can file a bug on the renderer
03:57:35 <Arnia> I'm not trying to be funny here... If it is a renderer bug then I want this filed so it can be fixed. If its a bug in the CSS, you'll be happy to find it and have it fixed. However, to rule out a CSS error you have to make the interactions of the selectors traceable
03:58:58 <bancus> I'm just a little burnt out on it now
03:59:11 <bancus> I'm only barely managing to make it look vaguely like it's supposed to.
04:08:15 <Arnia> I can understand the frustration but believe me, it's worthwhile
04:09:20 <Arnia> Your markup is leaner, your design can be tweaked site-wide with a single file edit, you can rest easier knowing that your site will work on mobile phones and will be indexed properly by search engines
04:16:07 <bancus> yeah, thanks for the advice
04:16:13 <bancus> I'll probably get around to it later in the week
04:16:49 <Arnia> * Arnia needs to buy a bluetooth dongle
04:29:24 <d8uv> "Toothepaste for dinner" is awesome.
04:29:33 <uche_> *** uche_ (~uogbuji@c-67-164-179-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
04:30:08 <uche_> Hmm. "Semantic Web Hack", my guess?
04:30:18 <sbp> nope; it's onomatopoeic!
04:30:23 <sbp> welcome to swhack, Uche!
04:30:27 <uche_> I followed a link from John Cowan here
04:30:32 <sbp> this channel is publically logged, by the way
04:30:40 <uche_> He didn't elaborate on the channel's purpose :-)
04:30:58 <sbp> I don't think he'd be such a resident if we spoke about nothing but the Semantic Web
04:31:02 <uche_> So I guess I shouldn't send any secret signals to any terrorist orgs herein
04:31:07 <sbp> it creeps in from time to time, but...
04:31:26 <uche_> So it's just a circle of friends thingie?
04:31:29 <uche_> Don't wanna intrude
04:31:41 <d8uv> Feel free and intrude!
04:31:43 <sbp> oh no, you're very much welcome. your reputation preceeds you
04:31:52 <uche_> Umm, that's scary
04:31:56 <sbp> (...Mr. Bond)
04:31:57 <uche_> :-)
04:32:09 <uche_> Just keep the laser away from my shorts and I'll be fine
04:32:14 <sbp> heh, heh
04:32:28 <sbp> I just mean that we've all lurked xml-dev in our lowest moments
04:32:41 <uche_> Lately it's low indeed
04:32:49 <uche_> Nothing but permathread re-runs
04:33:07 <Arnia> * Arnia prods Monty
04:33:08 <Monty> Your markup means. You missed basic spelling class.
04:33:08 <uche_> Cool. Well I'll hang out and see what you folks chat about...
04:33:10 <sbp> lately would mean how much of a decade--a quarter? half?
04:33:33 <d8uv> Man, I've not lurked any listserv
04:33:43 <uche_> 0.25*Decade, i think
04:33:43 <sbp> ah yes. I should explain Monty before the combinations of logging and lasers and so forth becomes too much
04:33:44 <Monty> awesome!
04:33:57 <uche_> odd bot?
04:34:05 <uche_> does he throw sharp hats?
04:34:07 <sbp> he's a markov chaining bot whose responses are sometimes frighteningly apt; and at others frighteningly not. there's no in-between
04:34:11 <sbp> ha. nope
04:34:15 <sbp> that's an idea though...
04:34:26 <uche_> Where's the pub log?
04:34:28 <Arnia> Monty: Learn to throw sharp hats
04:34:31 <sbp> loggy: pointer?
04:34:31 <sbp> See http://swhack.com/logs/2005-04-18#T04-34-31
04:34:33 <Monty> My secret: endurable rare nephridium prefers spotty nasty pest control ;)
04:34:34 <d8uv> swhack.com/logs
04:34:50 <sbp> and there's swhack.com for a general introduction
04:34:59 <uche_> * uche_ reads...
04:35:13 <d8uv> sbp was going to make a swhack faq, but he didn't.
04:35:23 <Arnia> That rhymes...
04:35:27 <sbp> I was going to make a *replacement* swhack faq, and I did
04:35:30 <uche_> Love the summary
04:35:32 <sbp> but I haven't published it yet
04:35:37 <uche_> And it also works as a decoder rind for "sbp"
04:35:39 <uche_> Hi Sean
04:35:48 <sbp> summary: well that's a shame because we don't confoirm to it very much. we do try though!
04:35:50 <sbp> hi there
04:36:14 <uche_> Does it use edd's chump?
04:36:23 <sbp> swhack.com/weblog? nope
04:36:32 <sbp> we used to, but now we use a custom set-up via Mr. Swartz here
04:36:38 <uche_> K
04:36:54 <sbp> I'm not sure why he migrated. we do have a nicer syntax though
04:36:59 <sbp> title (description): URI
04:37:04 <sbp> all fields and whitespace mandatory
04:37:25 <uche_> K
04:37:44 <uche_> Test:
04:37:58 <uche_> SWHack.com: http://swhack.com/
04:38:04 <sbp> other bots (we're big on bots here) include all of the voiced members of the channel, apart from kandinski who's been voiced by accident
04:38:38 <sbp> eel is an E interpreter written by kpreid
04:38:39 <uche_> blogbot, SWHack.com: http://swhack.com/
04:38:49 <sbp> I'd demonstrate him but I know nothing about E
04:38:49 <uche_> Woe. E?
04:38:54 <uche_> Wow
04:39:01 <Arnia> teddybot: Can you help me?
04:39:05 <uche_> Learned about it from Ka Ping Yee
04:39:05 <teddybot> Uh-huh.
04:39:11 <uche_> Crazy cool language
04:39:26 <sbp> that also demonstrates the syntax to be non-logged
04:39:49 <Arnia> teddybot: I'm trying to fix my shared RDF layer for Gnome and for some reason the DBUS signals aren't working any more
04:39:49 <teddybot> Go on.
04:39:50 <sbp> just prefix with [off]. I [off]'d the log grepping syntax to avoid poluting the results with the reference to itself
04:40:00 <sbp> s/pol/poll/
04:40:26 <sbp> julie is a bot that aggregates RDF
04:40:32 <sbp> ^name sbp
04:40:32 <julie> Sean B. Palmer, Sean Palmer
04:40:41 <sbp> and provides a flexible query interface to it
04:40:44 <sbp> ^status
04:40:45 <julie> I currently hold 2144401 triples, 86 namespaces, and 63 stored commands. I have been running for 39.441 hours, and have used 0.182 minutes of CPU time. Stats on current machine (crschmidt.net): 00:42:11 up 28 days, 9:17, 3 users, load average: 0.02, 0.03, 0.00
04:40:51 <Arnia> In case you haven't figured it out, teddybot just listens and makes encouraging sounds
04:40:51 <uche_> crikey!
04:40:53 <uche_> Busybot
04:40:56 <sbp> over two million triples and rising
04:41:04 <Arnia> ^commandlist
04:41:05 <julie> Current commands: allRelated, olb, like-pubs, maintainer, agentknows, webpage, drankbeerwith, alldayevents, depiction, based_near, icbm, keywords, country-population, chair, kissed, rsslinktitles, authorlinks, like-musicalwork, like-books, title, todo, travel, country-background, languages, nick, contact, places, pub-address, schemaweb, rangeOf, homepage, javaPlatform, available, country-lowestPoint, knows, quote, term, ljinterests, xfn_met, dob,
04:41:05 <julie> members, country-highestPoint, desc, school, made, name, neighborhoods, domainOf, rsstitles, like-musicians, commentContains, modified, picOfA, newdepiction, like-same-music-as, weblog, sha, workplace, biodob, mbox, dranklagerwith, namefromany, rsslinks,
04:41:12 <sbp> teddybot... eek. lots of output
04:41:18 <sbp> ...teddybot is jcowan's design actually
04:41:27 <sbp> .g site:ccil.org teddybot
04:41:28 <teddybot> Uh-huh.
04:41:38 <phenny> site:ccil.org teddybot: http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/teddybot
04:42:00 <Arnia> ^like-musician Arnia
04:42:21 <sbp> for all teddybot's phaticness and oblique strategies, we don't use him much
04:42:32 <Arnia> ^country-highestPoint UK
04:42:33 <sbp> Arnia: plural
04:42:34 <julie> Query returned no results
04:42:42 <Arnia> ^like-musicians Arnia
04:42:42 <sbp> ^country-highestPoint United Kingdon
04:42:43 <julie> Query returned no results
04:42:43 <julie> Query returned no results
04:42:44 <sbp> argh
04:42:45 <sbp> ^country-highestPoint United Kingdom
04:42:58 <uche_> So QBE?
04:43:10 <julie> 1343 Ben Nevis
04:43:31 <sbp> * sbp thinks... Quirk of the British Empire? oh, Query By Example
04:43:38 <uche_> Latter
04:43:48 <uche_> ^name Arnia
04:43:49 <julie> Joe Geldart
04:43:53 <uche_> Hu Joe
04:43:55 <uche_> Hi
04:44:08 <uche_> I'm learning
04:44:08 <d8uv> I have no name!
04:44:12 <d8uv> I am nameless!
04:44:19 <uche_> wie so?
04:44:27 <sbp> actually it's RDQL in the backend, but these command aliases are linked to template that allow you to substitute the arguments into variables
04:44:43 <Arnia> Hi uche_ :)
04:44:48 <sbp> ^name d8uv
04:44:48 <julie> Cody Woodard
04:44:59 <d8uv> OH NO MY LIES ARE FOUND OUT
04:44:59 <Arnia> If you have a FOAF description, you can drop it into Julie
04:45:02 <d8uv> * d8uv explodes
04:45:04 <Arnia> OH NOE!
04:45:10 <Arnia> * Arnia cleans up the mess
04:45:14 <uche_> Wittgenstein would be confused ;-)
04:45:24 <sbp> you'll have to watch out for constant d8uv explosions
04:45:35 <Arnia> * Arnia nukes d8uv's remains to wake him up
04:45:39 <sbp> lisppaste2 is just a regular pastebot
04:45:42 <sbp> lisppaste2: url?
04:45:42 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
04:45:51 <sbp> for when we're arguing in code
04:46:03 <d8uv> You can paste more than lisp.
04:46:15 <sbp> though the lisp syntax highlighter is *beautiful*
04:46:25 <d8uv> Yeah
04:46:31 <sbp> there's some Javascript backing to it that highlights the paren pairs when you hover over them
04:46:49 <lisppaste2> uche_ pasted "Test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/7531
04:47:31 <uche_> I guess I'll have to try a caddr chain
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04:47:48 <lisppaste2> sbp annotated #7531 with "Test Appendagelet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/7531#1
04:48:16 <uche_> a ha
04:48:25 <uche_> versteht
04:48:45 <uche_> that reminded me I have a hacking task to complete...
04:48:57 <sbp> * sbp nods solemnly
04:49:21 <sbp> very glad you dropped in, and I hope you enjoy sticking around
04:49:55 <d8uv> Yeah
04:51:38 <Arnia> me too
04:51:49 <Arnia> * Arnia yawns
04:52:01 <Arnia> Its quite late here...
04:52:25 <sbp> here too. what a coincidence! :-)
04:53:17 <Arnia> My goodness!
04:53:35 <Arnia> * Arnia reflects sbp into Frege
04:53:45 <Arnia> It's like a new sort of prison
04:54:09 <sbp> thankfully easier to break out than a chroot, I presume
04:55:48 <Arnia> It depends on whether you find a reflector back to RL to let you out
04:56:01 <Arnia> I guess it would be sort of like suspended animation
04:56:26 <sbp> I'd just pipe the source through tac
04:56:46 <Arnia> (my supervisor and I are getting giggly at the thought of being able to reflect methods and processes into RDF)
04:57:21 <sbp> it'll be nice to see it when it's all up and running and demonstrable
04:58:22 <Arnia> Yeah... well, the mono version of Frege works ok but crashes too often for practical use (redland-c# binding issues) so I've rewritten it in python
04:58:57 <Arnia> Unfortunately it won't send signals atm... so no graph changed notification
04:59:06 <Arnia> * Arnia shrugs
04:59:16 <Arnia> The new bindings apparently solve this
05:05:04 <Arnia> Oh, and there is a windows version of DBUS being written so you'll be able to play properly
05:05:28 <sbp> really? when was that started?
05:08:47 <Arnia> A few months ago... they're porting a lot of the freedesktop stuff so that Gnome applications can be used on Windows
05:08:57 <Arnia> Evolution being their main target atm
05:10:03 <d8uv> I'M RIDIN ON DBUS
05:10:16 <d8uv> THE WHEELS ON DBUS GO ROUND AND ROU
05:10:19 <d8uv> * d8uv explodes
05:12:03 <Arnia> * Arnia steals bits of d8uv
05:13:03 <d8uv> OH NO
05:13:56 <Arnia> * Arnia hides them in the cookie jar
05:15:10 <d8uv> Who put the d8uv fragments in the cookie jar?
05:15:33 <Arnia> I don't know, who put the d8uv fragments in the cookie jar?
05:17:01 <d8uv> Who, me?
05:17:36 <Arnia> Yes you!
05:19:58 <d8uv> Couldn't be. At least not totally.
05:25:40 <sbp> Glome, where are you now?
05:27:58 <sbp> Thunderbird really churns on my inbox now
05:28:11 <sbp> it takes like a minute and a half to open it
05:28:58 <Arnia> Hmm... frege backed inboxes *drools*
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06:28:09 <Arnia> Marvellous... there is an argument in a groklaw thread about 'truth'. I should get some popcorn
06:33:34 <uche_> which one is the blog bot?
06:33:41 <uche_> blogbot, help
06:33:41 <blogbot> Hi there. I'm a blogging bot. To start an entry, type '<< ' and then the entry title. For example: '<< This is a Test Post'. Everything you type from then on will be part of the entry.
06:33:43 <blogbot> To seperate paragraphs, use '..' on a single line. The link syntax is {link title <URI>}. I won't post any line that starts with ':'. To change the title, use '@title My New Title'
06:33:44 <blogbot> Then, to post the entry, use '>>' on a single line. To quit an entry whilst editing, use '@quit'. To recap the current text, use @recap. Entries are posted to http://crschmidt.net/noets/.
06:34:17 <Arnia> swhacker is the main blog bot
06:34:18 <uche_> Hmm. I meant the one for swhack.com/weblogs
06:34:27 <uche_> ta
06:34:57 <uche_> swhacker, Hackings notes: http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-04-18/Elements_v
06:35:11 <uche_> swhacker, help
06:37:15 <Arnia> Yes, Virginia. Actually, There Is a Santa Claus (A debate on the nature of truth in reporting and the wider world): http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20050115131942494&title=Yes%2C%20Virginia.%20%20%20Actually%2C%20There%20Is%20a%20Santa%20Claus&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=0#c262387
06:37:16 <swhacker> posted 751
06:37:30 <Arnia> That's how you use swhacker
06:37:30 <uche_> I see
06:37:31 <uche_> Thanks
06:37:53 <Arnia> You must have a title and a description (in brackets) then a colon and the URL
06:39:59 <Arnia> Gah... wish I could find a better way to reflect multiple same labelled statements into the OO model
06:40:10 <Arnia> Having to reassert all the arcs is a little tiresome
06:40:37 <uche_> Elements versus attributes and XML APIs (Notes from the night's hackings): http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-04-18/Elements_v
06:40:38 <swhacker> posted 752
06:41:23 <Arnia> uche_: You seem to be having a very similar problem to me
06:42:31 <uche_> Yeah. I didn't even mention the complications brought on by namespaces
06:42:38 <Arnia> uche_: I'm reflecting a shared RDF information store into an easy to specify python idiom
06:42:40 <uche_> Amara always uses local names
06:42:45 <uche_> Oh?
06:42:54 <uche_> That was my next planned direction in Amara
06:43:15 <uche_> I'll have to check out your effort when I get a sec
06:43:55 <Arnia> uche_: Because different users will have different needs from their reflections (especially true when using something as fluid as an RDF graph) I explicitly rejected automatically generating the reflectors
06:44:29 <Arnia> uche_: Rather, I allow developers to easily specify rdf backed properties using graphpath within their class definitions
06:44:31 <uche_> So the users build templates?
06:44:47 <uche_> In Amara, the user can override the default mappings using declarative rules
06:44:56 <uche_> Sounds similar, except I imposed a default
06:45:01 <Arnia> uche_: let me lisppaste a typical class definition
06:45:10 <Arnia> lisppaste2: help
06:45:10 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
06:45:14 <uche_> The rules are based on XSLT Patterns
06:45:26 <uche_> Yeah. I tried listpaste earlier
06:45:37 <uche_> Cool bot
06:46:43 <lisppaste2> Arnia pasted "A simple reflector" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/7533
06:48:11 <Arnia> This reflector only cares about two FOAF properties... others may mix schemas/ontologies of course
06:48:24 <Arnia> It all depends on the needs of a particular application
06:49:30 <Arnia> Since Frege is a *shared* information layer between all applications, it is deliberately non-committal about the OO mapping. Developers know best what they're trying to do, so don't force them into a way that is unidiomatic
06:49:45 <Arnia> To them, that is
06:50:00 <Arnia> I can use this as follows --
06:50:09 <Arnia> c = Contributor()
06:50:15 <Arnia> c.name = "Joe Geldart"
06:50:37 <Arnia> c.email = URIRef("mailto:jgeldart@example.com")
06:51:32 <Arnia> Or by passing a URIRef in the constructor, I can place the information at a specific URI (otherwise its a bnode)
06:52:55 <Arnia> Make sense?
06:53:09 <uche_> I think so
06:53:37 <uche_> Probably not a likely approach for Amara, but I understand the motivation
06:54:00 <uche_> This seems a bit more like the schem-driven data binding
06:54:12 <uche_> Although rather than schema you have these reflector classes
06:54:52 <uche_> If you had a way to generate reflector classdefs from RDFS, that would be killer
06:55:03 <Arnia> Sort of... I'm going to be developing the reflection so its ontologically motivated (basically it knows when you're breaking the type-system OWL describes and complains unless you over-ride it)
06:55:50 <Arnia> I am targeting OWL with this... my PhD is going to target a complete mapping (including a process model using temporal description logic)
06:56:41 <Arnia> I don't want to generate classes from OWL though... I want these reflectors to work within *current* code as far as possible
06:57:00 <uche_> Wow
06:57:13 <uche_> Should be fun to watch
06:57:24 <uche_> Do you hve a lonk for yr code?
06:58:45 <Arnia> Not yet... once I've handed in my dissertation (I'm a poor undergrad) I'm going to spruce it up and put it in my arch repository
06:59:40 <Arnia> I don't want to do it yet because it would lay me open to all kinds of problems with proving I did all the code myself
07:09:44 <uche_> Sure
07:09:46 <uche_> Just curious
07:10:04 <uche_> Wouldn't have much time to pore over it, anyway :-(
07:10:10 <Arnia> No, I'll be more than happy to show how Frege works once this week is done and dusted :)
07:10:12 <uche_> Crazy-swamped these days
07:10:24 <uche_> after 1am here. Bedtime.
07:10:34 <Arnia> Yeah... if you're hanging around here I'll just paste you the link
07:10:39 <Arnia> Ok... have a good night
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08:34:04 <eaon> * eaon hits Monty
08:34:04 <Monty> Could it won't jump based on those three cricket bats in *different* components in practive, if someone else detect a ball, then the proof
08:34:17 <eaon> good mornin'
08:46:04 <Arnia> Hiya
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08:54:02 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim has quit ("Bye!")
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08:58:29 <mediovia_> *** mediovia_ is now known as mediovia
08:58:38 <mediovia> helloo
08:59:08 <Arnia> Hello mediovia
08:59:14 <pixelcort> Hello. :)
09:00:02 <Arnia> * Arnia waves to everyone and nukes in a friendly manner
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09:01:53 <Monty> welcome, themaximus_
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09:51:10 <Monty> Hey JibberJim, JimH asked me to tell you: which channel is good for finding London Perl mongers? [Mon Apr 18 10:32:48 BST 2005]
09:53:57 <Arnia> HMS SCaldera (Rick Moen's parody): http://lwn.net/Articles/34848/
09:53:58 <swhacker> posted 753
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11:03:59 <mediovia> Wheee! Got Anyterm working.
11:04:10 <mediovia> Now to put it in a Firefox sidebar
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11:40:26 <kpreid> NEW PEOPLE!!!
11:40:43 <Arnia> * Arnia screams
11:40:46 <crschmidt> AGH!
11:42:09 <xover> Fresh Meat!
11:42:17 <xover> * xover HUNGRY!
11:45:43 <eaon> *** eaon has quit ("bye")
11:48:44 <kandinski> mediovia, whassa point of having anyterm in a Firefox sidebar?
11:49:38 <mediovia> kandinski: so I can follow instructions on web pages more easily, not have to move from the browser to do things
11:49:44 <mediovia> which might not be a good thing
11:51:25 <crschmidt> hey, i'm not in #svg
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11:59:21 <kandinski> good thinking!
11:59:25 <kandinski> konqueror already has that
11:59:31 <kandinski> how do you do that, btw?
11:59:45 <kandinski> can you make firefox do horizontal sidebars?
11:59:51 <kandinski> ok, you could make a howto
12:00:27 <kandinski> it could be the last howto I would have to read switching from the browser to the terminal to do things
12:00:44 <mediovia> kandinski: hot to what? sorry
12:00:55 <mediovia> s/hot/how
12:02:33 <mediovia> A horizontal sidebar for this would be neat.
12:02:43 <kandinski> howto get an anyterm inside firefox
12:02:52 <kandinski> konq has horizontal consoles embedded
12:03:05 <kandinski> and it can now use gecko as a renderer
12:03:16 <kandinski> find a way for it to load ff plugins, and you are set!
12:03:26 <mediovia> yes, true. Neat ideas.
12:03:29 <mediovia> I just did...
12:04:37 <kandinski> it might be more convenient to just add a wishlist for horizontal sidebars to the mozilla bugzilla
12:04:47 <mediovia> javascript:window.sidebar.addPanel ("Anyterm", "http://192.168.0.1:9090/anyterm.html","");
12:05:01 <mediovia> in the location bar and hit enter
12:05:11 <kandinski> I am sure sidebars use the same code as frames anyway
12:05:17 <kandinski> easy peasy
12:05:29 <kandinski> do you have a panoramic screen?
12:05:33 <mediovia> It prompts you to add a bookmark, which you can just click to bring up the sidebar
12:05:39 <mediovia> no, sadly
12:06:47 <mediovia> Yea, I'm sure it'd be easy to find a way to put it in a horizontal frame somehow
12:07:01 <kandinski> you could make a webpage
12:07:04 <kandinski> with two frames
12:07:13 <kandinski> in one your instructions, in other your anyterm
12:07:20 <mediovia> yeah
12:07:22 <kandinski> seems quite straightforward
12:08:54 <mediovia> It doesn't seem to like exiting from the last screen screen
12:09:36 <kandinski> ¿?
12:09:36 <mediovia> which is a small disappointment
12:09:59 <kandinski> you use to connect to a screen session, but it does not like exiting into the shell?
12:10:04 <kandinski> (from the screen program)
12:10:07 <kandinski> then don't
12:10:15 <kandinski> I keep my screen sessions open
12:10:19 <kandinski> just cut the connection
12:10:33 <mediovia> Well, screen works, and I can navigate ok, but exiting screen finally seems to break
12:10:47 <mediovia> yeah, but I'm trying to break it atm
12:11:12 <kandinski> this is so good
12:11:17 <kandinski> I am going to install it on my bp machine
12:11:36 <kandinski> so I can shell to it even from cybercaffs where they don't let me download and run putty
12:11:42 <mediovia> you have it going?
12:11:51 <kandinski> no, I am doing other things
12:12:05 <mediovia> Ah, I'm only running it locally, there are some pretty serious security risks
12:12:06 <kandinski> and courtesy demands I ask the bofh before installing anything on bp (it is a production machine)
12:12:11 <kandinski> pretty serious?
12:12:14 <kandinski> over https?
12:12:17 <mediovia> I don't l=think he'd like it
12:12:45 <mediovia> Ah, maybe, and you'd have to configure the login script, and make sure that's secure
12:13:04 <mediovia> otherwise any user who knew of the url could log in as www-data
12:13:14 <kandinski> right, we don't want that
12:13:38 <mediovia> early days yet, but promising
12:13:59 <kandinski> well, I think it is a good idea. still, a java ssh client is better for now, yes?
12:14:08 <kandinski> in an applet, I mean
12:14:17 <mediovia> yeah, I'd say so, there are several around
12:14:44 <mediovia> (I don't run java though)
12:14:58 <kandinski> this seems a very good comparison: http://chezphil.org/anyterm/compared.html
12:16:39 <mediovia> yep, that's as many as I was aware of and more
12:20:16 <xover> kandinski: https isn't in any way secure if you don't control the endpoints, and use mutual certificate authentication. Even then it's significantly less secure than typical SSH setups.
12:25:55 <jessica_> *** jessica_ is now known as jessica
12:35:36 <kandinski> I do control the endpoint
12:35:40 <kandinski> one of them at least
12:35:45 <kandinski> ah, but not the cybercaff
12:35:47 <kandinski> tru
12:50:20 <themaximus__> *** themaximus__ is now known as themaximus
13:16:02 <mediovia> Um, how do I move a file called "--read.me--" ?
13:16:19 <mediovia> anything I try just says that --read.me is an invalid switch
13:18:11 <kpreid> tried mv -- --read.me-- ...?
13:18:28 <mediovia> thanks, just foubd that
13:18:38 <kpreid> otherwise, perl -e 'rename("--read.me--", ...)'
13:19:42 <mediovia> yep, worked fine
13:21:41 <mediovia> Very annoying, it was included as part of some kernel packages and caused the debian/rules scripts to fail
13:21:57 <mediovia> s/packages/patches
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13:27:07 <jsled> mediovia: rm -- --read.me--
13:27:18 <jsled> oh, nevermind.
13:27:27 <jsled> I read days of backscroll, but miss the last few lines.
13:28:05 <mediovia> :)
13:28:36 <bskahan> *** bskahan has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
13:37:52 <mediovia> Neat idea: budget preferences expressed over gprs - http://www.iraqcost.com/
13:47:22 <jessica> * jessica is away: hunting^W gathering roots and berries, or maybe Doritos. breakfast time.
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14:04:35 <d8uv> http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/adobeandmacromedia.html <- HOLY CRAP
14:04:45 <crschmidt> man, you're slow. that's like, so, hours ago
14:04:54 <d8uv> Damn you!
14:05:01 <redmonk> yeah, i just read that myself
14:05:09 <redmonk> so don't feel bad, d8uv
14:05:16 <redmonk> and like you said: WTF?
14:06:18 <d8uv> It's not so much a WTF as it is a "Man, this is probably going to be stupid good for everyone".
14:07:19 <uche_> Very interesting, f'sho
14:08:22 <redmonk> well, yeah, what were they smoking over there?
14:08:33 <uche_> redmonk??
14:08:37 <redmonk> what did adobe think they were going to get out of the deal, except a monopoly?
14:08:40 <uche_> ^name redmonk
14:08:40 <julie> Steve Ivy
14:08:51 <redmonk> http://redmonk.net
14:08:53 <uche_> Connected to the blog site?
14:08:56 <uche_> I know
14:08:58 <uche_> Cool
14:09:18 <redmonk> ^name uche_
14:09:18 <julie> Query returned no results
14:09:25 <redmonk> you don't exist!
14:09:26 <uche_> Quite a collection here
14:09:31 <uche_> I'm a golem
14:09:37 <redmonk> heh
14:09:44 <uche_> So how do you assert triples in julie?
14:09:55 <redmonk> ohhh, kinky
14:10:01 <crschmidt> Either create them in an RDF/XML file, and add the file via ^add
14:10:09 <crschmidt> or ^addturtle [a turtle:Statement].
14:10:10 <d8uv> You can add turtle directly somehow too.
14:10:32 <d8uv> Yeah. I'd just plug in a FOAF document via ^add.
14:10:43 <uche_> K
14:10:51 <crschmidt> You can also parse other stuff via ^parse, but that's undocumented, and likely to break :)
14:10:55 <uche_> Just got a hair-on-fire e-mail, tho
14:10:57 <uche_> bbiab
14:18:31 <crschmidt> .wn sphere
14:18:36 <crschmidt> .w sphere
14:18:48 <phenny> sphere 1. a particular environment or walk of life; "his social sphere is limited"; "it was a closed area of employment"; "he's out of my orbit"
14:18:52 <phenny> sphere 2. any spherically shaped artifact
14:18:55 <phenny> sphere 3. the geographical area in which one nation is very influential [...]
14:21:22 <crschmidt> ^picOfA Sphere
14:21:22 <julie> http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/povray/shapes.png (x2), http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/povray/chain.png (x2), http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/povray/shine.png, http://crschmidt.net/povray/20050410/pyramid2.jpg
14:37:06 <d8uv> http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices <- This seems bad for not US and Egypt
15:26:31 <xover> .w valable
15:26:44 <phenny> I couldn't find valable in WordNet.
15:26:50 <xover> .gc valable
15:27:04 <phenny> valable: 1,540,000
15:52:07 <crschmidt> @acronym SPARQL
15:52:18 <supybot> crschmidt: SPARQL could be Simple Protocol and RDF Query Language
15:53:23 <eaon> motherfucking opera.
15:53:27 <eaon> * eaon groans
16:06:47 <edsu> *** edsu (~esummers@h-68-166-252-195.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #swhack
16:06:47 <Monty> But what does edsu have to do with the price of fish?
16:06:49 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
16:06:50 <Monty> i'll tell you like. :-)
16:09:14 <eaon> Monty: like what?
16:09:14 <Monty> What comes to mind when you ask that ?
16:09:21 <eaon> Monty: opera
16:09:21 <Monty> sleepeth: 33,500
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16:37:37 <jcowan> *** jcowan (~jcowan@a7cebc03.cst.lightpath.net) has joined #swhack
16:40:34 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
16:40:45 <crschmidt> isn't that the wrong one?
16:40:52 <jcowan> Yeah, it is.
16:40:54 <jcowan> Whonkity!
16:40:58 <crschmidt> Howdy jcowan!
16:41:05 <jcowan> * jcowan hates hates hates programs that grab the focus away from you without warning.
16:41:15 <jcowan> crschmidt: Hails, frijond!
16:41:32 <jcowan> * jcowan does his timesheet for last week
16:41:40 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim has quit ("dIRC IRC Client - www.dragonmount.net/dirc/")
16:43:55 <jcowan> *** jcowan has changed the topic to: You are as small as the
16:44:00 <jcowan> Arrgh.
16:45:29 <sbp> jcowan, hello! Uche came looking for you, and in one of those interesting twists of fate, stayed--at least until now
16:45:31 <jcowan> Argh!
16:45:41 <crschmidt> *** crschmidt has changed the topic to: Parish council elections for St Albion's Parish 5th May - gotta keep the bastids out some'ow, intya?
16:45:42 <sbp> I like it. it's very zen
16:45:47 <sbp> you are as small as the ""
16:45:48 <crschmidt> oh
16:45:51 <crschmidt> i failed, then
16:46:08 <sbp> the St. Albion's election notice is fine too
16:46:12 <jcowan> *** jcowan has changed the topic to: You are as small as the difference between the square of the difference between my
16:46:18 <crschmidt> morning, sbp
16:46:23 <sbp> hey there crschmidt
16:46:40 <crschmidt> * crschmidt wrote http://crschmidt.net/semweb/xtech/sparql this morning
16:48:22 <jcowan> *** jcowan has changed the topic to: You are as small as the difference between the square of the difference between my little pony and your big hairy hound and the cube of your sorry little codpiece.
16:48:26 <jcowan> Thuryago.
16:48:44 <jcowan> Some kind of problem with cut/paste.
16:50:48 <sbp> WOAH, Adobe bought out Ma... oh you all know
16:51:04 <jcowan> Not I.
16:51:14 <redmonk> *** redmonk has quit ()
16:51:26 <jcowan> Ah.
16:53:01 <redmonk> *** redmonk (~steve@216.185.189.146) has joined #swhack
16:53:21 <jcowan> http://gentooexperimental.org/nt/ is the weirdest goddam thing I've seen in a month of Sundays.
16:55:42 <sbp> pretty neat though
16:57:15 <sbp> hmm: http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/local/11416436.htm
16:57:25 <sbp> I wonder if one could find those on Google Maps?
16:57:36 <jcowan> Problem with the hed there.
16:58:16 <sbp> the hed?
16:58:51 <jcowan> Sorry. That would be the headline.
16:59:01 <sbp> heh. I typed in "Fig Island, SC" and it zoomed me into Oklahoma and said nothing found
16:59:11 <sbp> ah. yeah
16:59:20 <sbp> you newsboys
16:59:29 <jcowan> Very unlikely that Fig Island has a postal code.
16:59:41 <sbp> it doesn't have much of a Google mention either
17:01:25 <sbp> oho: http://www.maporders.com/loc/32/080/322230t0803000.shtml
17:02:08 <sbp> would people who go to college in Frogmore, SC be called Froggies?
17:02:24 <jcowan> Sounds like a copied English toponym to me.
17:02:47 <jcowan> Yup. Frogmore (more = moor, very likely) is in Hants.
17:02:52 <jcowan> So you tell me.
17:03:31 <jcowan> Holy duplicates, Batman! There appear to be Frogmores in Herts and Berks as well!
17:03:52 <sbp> and one in Devon!
17:04:18 <jcowan> Gak.
17:04:35 <jcowan> Do we see here Old England's version of the New England Town Names Law?
17:05:20 <sbp> I must've passed within three miles of the Hampshire one (it's on the M3)
17:05:23 <jcowan> Frogmore House is right by Windsor Castle, it seems.
17:05:27 <sbp> New England Town Names Law?
17:05:43 <jcowan> If a town named X exists in any N.E. state, it exists in every N.E. state.
17:05:55 <jcowan> er, that's not well put, but you get the idea.
17:06:03 <jcowan> No actual town can exist in more than one state.
17:06:36 <sbp> oh, right
17:06:42 <jcowan> Bach and Peters roll over in their graves.
17:06:51 <jcowan> (or tenured positions, as the case may be)
17:06:53 <sbp> Bach and Peters?
17:07:20 <jcowan> The Bach-Peters sentence shows that pronouns actually refer to the referents of their antecedents and don't simply copy the antecedents themselves.
17:07:37 <sbp> what's the sentence?
17:07:41 <jcowan> googling
17:07:52 <jcowan> QV and Albert are buried in Frogmore House, or, well, outside it.
17:08:15 <sbp> oh! I may have seen this on television the other day
17:08:27 <sbp> they showed a three-part series about Windsor castle
17:08:43 <sbp> and the Duke of Edinburgh took the presenter to their mausoleum
17:09:08 <sbp> didn't recall the name Frogmore from it though
17:09:10 <jcowan> "A boy_i who saw her_j kissed a girl_j who knew him_i", where things with identical subscripts have identical referents.
17:10:01 <sbp> and it proves it because the pronoun appears before the noun in the case of j?
17:10:53 <jcowan> Because an attempt to macroexpand the sentence leads to an infinite regress.
17:10:59 <jcowan> More properly the sentence is
17:11:26 <jcowan> "(A boy who saw her_j)_i kissed (a girl who knew him_i)_j.
17:11:27 <jcowan> "
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17:12:20 <jcowan> So a first attempt to macroexpand leads to
17:12:33 <jcowan> "A boy who saw a girl who knew him kissed a girl who knew a boy who saw her.
17:12:40 <jcowan> Which doesn't help, because we still have the same two pronouns.
17:13:14 <jcowan> * jcowan is not doing well with closing quotation marks today.
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17:15:10 <sbp> ah, because each pronoun occurs in the other's expansion
17:15:27 <sbp> heh. the official Oxyrhynchus Project is called POxy: http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/
17:17:18 <sbp> oh, you probably don't have that
17:17:20 <sbp> [[[
17:17:20 <sbp> poxy
17:17:20 <sbp> Adj. 1. Rubbishy, crass, of poor quality.
17:17:21 <sbp> 2. A general negative intensifier. E.g."I'm not wasting my time and money by going to the poxy shops, just to keep her happy."
17:17:21 <sbp> * Occasionally spelt poxey.
17:17:25 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/p.htm
17:17:42 <jcowan> I recognize it but don't use it.
17:18:04 <sbp> phizog's a great one
17:18:06 <sbp> ah
17:26:24 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "XPath-like Suggestion for Amara" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/7539
17:27:02 <crschmidt> .g amara
17:27:14 <phenny> amara: http://www.amarasoftware.com/
17:27:24 <sbp> phenny: tell uche* what about an XPath-like interface for Amara? summary: elem/'@something', elem/'b', see very naive implementation at http://paste.lisp.org/display/7539
17:27:26 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on for you when uche* is around.
17:28:16 <sbp> based on Arnia's RDF Path in Python musing
17:28:27 <sbp> Amara reminds me a lot of xmltramp in its current approach
17:34:50 <sbp> hmm. I'd probably use $ or # for indexes then
17:34:54 <lonur> monty, what comes after 1?
17:34:54 <Monty> Have you asked such questions before ?
17:35:12 <lonur> monty, what comes after 1000?
17:35:13 <Monty> 1 euro for "gustaf"
17:35:35 <sbp> 998, 999, 1000, 1 euro for "gustaf"...
17:35:40 <sbp> et seq.
17:35:56 <lonur> boy, it'll take a long time to figure monty out
17:35:59 <Monty> phonological rhubarb grows up with awesome Bud_Lite!
17:38:19 <sbp> heh: if not hasattr(__builtins__, 'True'): True, False = 1, 0
17:38:36 <sbp> I don't think that works in some circumstances, e.g. when imported
17:38:53 <sbp> you have to do try: True; except NameError: True, False = 1, 0
17:39:23 <eaon> *** eaon has quit ("bye")
17:44:02 <Arnia> Frogmoor in Wycombe too
17:44:19 <sbp> isn't that the Berks one?
17:44:20 <Arnia> (its a square in the centre of town)
17:44:24 <sbp> ah
17:44:51 <Arnia> I want a nicer syntax for graphpath :/
17:45:08 <sbp> shame you can't extend Python syntax
17:45:19 <Arnia> Yeah... it would be nice
17:45:31 <Arnia> Gives me an idea for Nemerle's reflectors though
17:46:14 <jcowan> Should have two m's, Arnia.
17:46:34 <jcowan> Quick: everybody rush to use Scheme instead.
17:46:48 <Arnia> I like scheme...
17:46:59 <libby> sbp, quick pyrple q?
17:47:02 <jcowan> rm -r was once called dsw (as in "do swedanya")
17:47:07 <sbp> hey libby. go for it
17:47:19 <sbp> do swedanya: heh
17:47:38 <jcowan> Not the real etymology, which is simply "delete (by) switches"
17:47:46 <libby> cheers sbp: is theree a built in thing for putting url results rather than local file in a graph?
17:48:01 <libby> i.e. downloading the url and putting it in a graph?
17:48:07 <libby> * libby likes it very much btw
17:48:09 <Arnia> jcowan: The square only has a single 'm'
17:48:14 <sbp> G = Graph(uri="http://etc.")
17:48:18 <sbp> awesome
17:48:26 <libby> ah so that should just workie? thanks
17:48:29 <sbp> yep
17:48:42 <sbp> it should even do a bit of type detection, so you can pass N-Triples or RDF/XML
17:49:19 <libby> heh. it seems to be barfing cos I'm serving it as text/plain
17:49:24 <libby> bad me
17:49:41 <sbp> odd. it should still pick up RDF/XML served as text/plain
17:50:19 <sbp> [[[
17:50:20 <sbp> elif contentType in ('text/plain', 'application/octet-stream', ''):
17:50:20 <sbp> if r_xml.match(s):
17:50:20 <sbp> result = RDFXML
17:50:24 <sbp> ]]] - http://infomesh.net/pyrple/pyrple-2004-06-06/parsers/parse.py.txt
17:50:55 <Arnia> sbp: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/384122
17:51:04 <libby> [[[
17:51:05 <libby> File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/site-packages/pyrple/parsers/parse.py", line 94, in getType
17:51:05 <libby> else: raise "NotImplemented", "Unknown MIME type: %s" % contentType
17:51:05 <libby> NotImplemented: Unknown MIME type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
17:51:06 <libby> ]]]
17:51:18 <libby> no matter though
17:51:40 <sbp> oh bollocks
17:51:53 <sbp> should've used startswith
17:52:11 <Arnia> Logix (DSELs with Python): http://logix.livelogix.com/
17:52:11 <swhacker> posted 754
17:52:18 <libby> hehe
17:52:27 <libby> cheers for the help sbp. nice work
17:52:44 <sbp> no problem. seems I need to update it though :-)
17:52:58 <sbp> Arnia: infix: ooh!
17:54:31 <Arnia> sbp: Yep
17:55:42 <Arnia> sbp: Discussion on http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/view/538
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17:57:17 <sbp> reminds me of Ruby closure syntax
17:58:31 <Arnia> Yeah
17:58:37 <Arnia> Which reminds me of smalltalk
17:59:06 <jcowan> Smalltalk is nice in that blocks are the only special forms that exist.
17:59:52 <Arnia> Smalltalk is a conservative and elegant language... but I'm going to teach my housemates next year python
18:01:34 <BigJibby> *** BigJibby has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:05:21 <sbp> black smoke
18:05:43 <Arnia> Hm... first meeting isn't it?
18:05:46 <sbp> yep
18:06:44 <libby> you watching ch4 news sbp?
18:07:03 <xover> Black smoke... So they're still on the weed; not started in on the Crack yet then?
18:07:25 <libby> fwiw sbp, http://libby.asemantics.com/2005/04/pictures/ is what I've been working on
18:07:42 <libby> substituing in descriptions of people for nicks in image files
18:07:50 <jcowan> You could treat Scheme's (if p t e) as a macro for (if* p (lambda () t) (lambda () e), where if* is an ordinary but primitive function.
18:08:13 <sbp> BBC
18:08:24 <sbp> * sbp checks out /2005/04/pictures/
18:08:42 <libby> it's iphoto export stuff
18:08:50 <xover> Hmmm. Libby... Oh, right. <http://www.libbymiller.com/rweb/who?mboxsha1=22895cddb2a430bae696dc80eb6a21a10d5cfaf3> seems to be bork.
18:09:35 <libby> hm, rdf produced is buggy, boo
18:09:47 <libby> a bunch of my links are still borked unfortunately
18:10:11 <sbp> wow, awesome. we're you planning to do with the RDF you get?
18:10:18 <sbp> could back a website from it
18:10:30 <libby> d'oh! my rdf sucks!!
18:10:44 <libby> * libby hadn;t really thought that far ahead ;)
18:10:49 <sbp> heh, heh
18:10:56 <libby> we wanted lots of data to play with in sparqling camp
18:10:57 <Arnia> Do we really need an election? (Extreme Democracy and other systems): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4456269.stm
18:10:57 <swhacker> posted 755
18:11:41 <Arnia> re demarchy: "AGAINST: Things might get a bit too random."
18:12:13 <sbp> AGAINST: Hahaha. Hahahahahahahahaha.
18:12:59 <jcowan> AGAINST: See Joan Vinge, _The Heaven Chronicles_
18:13:14 <sbp> awesome: 'But he also has some very low-tech suggestions to increase turnout. "I'd invest in tea and buns at the polling station for a start", he says.'
18:13:16 <jcowan> FOR: See Norman Spinrad, _A World Between_.
18:13:27 <uche_> *** uche_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:13:33 <jcowan> Don't think tea and buns would raise turnout here: for one thing, male or female buns?
18:13:50 <jcowan> * jcowan highly recommends both books, though.
18:14:07 <sbp> Cantons sound interesting
18:14:08 <Arnia> I like the canton system
18:14:18 <Arnia> Its sort of what I've wanted for a while
18:14:34 <sbp> that's decided then. sbp and Arnia agree, thus it must be implemented
18:14:39 <Arnia> jcowan: Never underestimate the power of tea on the English mind :)
18:14:47 <sbp> and buns. of any kind
18:15:00 <Arnia> Especially toasted teacakes
18:15:05 <Arnia> Or scones
18:15:57 <jcowan> Heaven Chronicles also have a cool timescale based on seconds, kilosecs, megasecs, and gigasecs.
18:16:11 <sbp> hehe: "AGAINST: Davina McCall as the Speaker anyone?"
18:16:23 <jcowan> (It's set in an asteroid-belt-only solar system.)
18:17:28 <jcowan> Ha, looks like Vinge's use of "demarchy" predates Burnheim's.
18:18:03 <Arnia> Demarchy would be cool if it was a little more coherent
18:20:31 <sbp> surely it's just Big Brother voting without proper representation?
18:21:04 <sbp> so Davina McCall as speaker one day, Caprice the next, Jordan another
18:23:12 <xover> Hmm. My FC4t2 PPC — the first Fedora Core with support for Mac hardware — download is pinned at a steady rate of 666 KB/s.
18:23:19 <Arnia> I think it would be less populist than 'representative democracy'... the selections for each policy area would be seeded with people with knowledge from that area
18:23:24 <sbp> chuckle
18:23:26 <Arnia> xover: Shall I eat it?
18:23:30 <xover> * xover has second thoughts about trying to dualboot his Mac with Fedora...
18:23:58 <sbp> they'd be seeded with beer swilling, cud chewing morons
18:24:07 <xover> "eat" it?
18:24:25 <Arnia> sbp: Problem of all democracy that
18:24:33 <sbp> you don't elect random members of the public to be doctors or architects or any other profession that's essential to the country
18:24:33 <Arnia> sbp: Impulsive
18:24:43 <sbp> why should you do it for possibly the most important?
18:24:54 <Arnia> xover: Yes... with chips
18:25:41 <xover> * xover backs away slowly...
18:27:40 <jcowan> Politics isn't a professional activity.
18:27:45 <Arnia> Haven't you ever eaten software before? Chunky chips all the way
18:27:51 <Arnia> jcowan: It shouldn't be
18:28:07 <jcowan> So called professional politicians aren't professionals in the usual sense of the term.
18:28:15 <sbp> yes they are
18:28:24 <jcowan> A profession is something you do based, essentially, on what you learn from books.
18:28:28 <sbp> they study, fight their way through the ranks, get paid
18:28:37 <jcowan> Which is why ditch-digging is not a profession, and neither is being President of the U.S.
18:28:52 <jcowan> Both involve getting a general idea of the job and applying yourself to it with whatever you've got.
18:29:00 <sbp> even Bush must've studied what it means to be a president to some extent, surely?
18:29:22 <jcowan> If so, he's done it on his own hook.
18:29:55 <jcowan> (I just changed the Wikipedia article on demarchy to refer to the Vinge book)
18:30:10 <sbp> what about his advisors and top staff?
18:30:15 <jcowan> Bush's degrees are in history, which is relevant but surely not on point.
18:30:26 <sbp> he has degrees?!
18:30:42 <jcowan> B.A. in history, M.B.A.
18:30:55 <sbp> the education system really is broken
18:30:58 <Arnia> * Arnia scratches his head
18:31:23 <jcowan> I don't think anyone has suggested that he didn't earn those.
18:31:41 <jcowan> Granted, his GPA was only 2.35.
18:31:43 <jcowan> (max 4.0)
18:31:52 <sbp> damn, it would've been an excellent election ploy
18:32:06 <jcowan> There are too many tu-quoque possibilities.
18:32:09 <sbp> nobody would've believed he got them on merit
18:32:40 <jcowan> He's not stupid. The Air Force doesn't make stupid people into fighter pilots.
18:32:54 <jcowan> He *is* inauthentic, which is not the same thing.
18:32:57 <sbp> * sbp skims http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html
18:33:09 <jcowan> "And so's your old man", essentially.
18:33:28 <sbp> nice summary
18:34:05 <jcowan> Yes, it is.
18:34:11 <jcowan> I just had a strange semantic experience.
18:34:12 <sbp> :-)
18:34:14 <xover> .ety profession
18:34:28 <phenny> profession: Middle English professioun, from Old French profession, from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin profession-, professio, from Latin, public declaration, from profitEri
18:34:44 <sbp> John W. Cowan's Strange Semantic Experience
18:34:47 <jcowan> Because the microwave on my floor was busy, I walked up to the next floor to use their (identically located) microwave.
18:34:56 <sbp> coming soon to a bookshop or a record store near you. I can't decide
18:35:13 <jcowan> I met there an acquaintance, who thought I had come to his floor because of some Reuters Health problem.
18:35:23 <jcowan> he said "Oh, I thought you came down here to [etc etc etc]"
18:35:34 <sbp> down?
18:35:35 <jcowan> As a result, the bit telling me how to get back to my own floor was flipped,
18:35:40 <sbp> heh!
18:35:42 <jcowan> and I walked up (further) to the next floor.
18:35:52 <xover> heh heh.
18:36:00 <jcowan> Only when I got to "my" cube (since all the floors are essentially alike) did I realize what had happened.
18:36:06 <Arnia> * Arnia grins
18:36:22 <sbp> so that's why you were gone in the 19:17 - 19:27 interval...
18:36:32 <xover> Turning the world on its head with a single word! Eloquent guy!
18:36:47 <sbp> *effective* guy. he'd make a great president
18:36:52 <jcowan> * jcowan gasps out "Rilchiam!"
18:37:43 <sbp> who was King Rilchiam?
18:37:57 <Arnia> Shall we elect him to our cabalistic government?
18:37:59 <jcowan> If you know that much, you know the whole story, so don't try to bamboozle *me*.
18:38:06 <sbp> darn
18:38:15 <jcowan> Of course, the correct answer is simply Harry.
18:38:36 <jcowan> The only remaining question is what a Bezonian is, and sbp ought to be the expert on that.
18:39:23 <sbp> well!
18:39:36 <jcowan> As our local Shaksperian, that is.
18:39:41 <sbp> "Bezonian A new recruit; applied originally in derision, to young soldiers sent from Spain to Italy, who landed both ill-accoutred and in want of everything (Ital. besogni, from bisogno, need; French besoin)."
18:39:48 <jcowan> Ta.
18:39:52 <sbp> according to Brewer's Phrase and Fable, which is very awesome
18:40:04 <jcowan> Brewer is not always right, but he's always interesting.
18:40:24 <sbp> presumably the more recent editions are righter though?
18:40:28 <jcowan> I have found it very useful on the Internet to know the seven degrees of the lie.
18:40:39 <jcowan> s/the lie/giving the lie
18:41:16 <sbp> oh?
18:42:13 <jcowan> Well, the Lie Direct is simply "You lie" or "You are a liar".
18:42:22 <jcowan> Crude, but useful as a challenge to mortal combat.
18:42:41 <jcowan> The Lie Conditional is: "If anyone says such-and-such, he lies."
18:43:03 <jcowan> This gives your opponent the opportunity to evade your wrath.
18:43:53 <sbp> except if you say "If anyone says he is Tony Blair, he lies."
18:44:10 <sbp> which is also quite funny
18:44:26 <jcowan> Who lies, the speaker or Tony Blair?
18:44:47 <jcowan> s/Conditional/Circumstantial
18:45:03 <sbp> if you claim to be Tony Blair and you're not, then you're a liar; if you claim to be Tony Blair and are, you lied about WMD to parliament
18:45:20 <jcowan> Next comes the Countercheck Quarrelsome: "How dare you say such a thing!"
18:46:11 <jcowan> Then the Reproof Valiant: "You *know* that is not true." I usually use this as the outer limit myself, though I sometimes advance to the CQ.
18:46:11 <redmonk> * redmonk scratches his head and returns to lurking
18:46:19 <jcowan> "Returns" to lurking?
18:46:35 <libby> *** libby has quit (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
18:46:44 <sbp> the dislurk statement contains the seeds of the relurk
18:47:06 <jcowan> The next lower degree is the Reply Churlish: "You are no judge; your opinion is worthless."
18:47:44 <jcowan> sbp: but suppose you are a different person also truly named Tony Blair?
18:47:45 <sbp> 1) Lie Direct, 2) Lie Circumstantial, 3) Countercheck Quarrelsome, 4) Reproof Valiant, 5) Reply Churlish...
18:47:53 <sbp> yeah, that's sadly where it breaks down
18:48:14 <sbp> "the Prime Minister Tony Blair", perhaps
18:48:15 <redmonk> 6) Non-Reply Apathetic
18:48:26 <jcowan> redmonk: no, that would be 8
18:48:27 <Arnia> Rt. Hon. Tony Blair MP (First Lord of the Treasury)
18:48:49 <libby> *** libby (~libby@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
18:49:13 <jcowan> 6) The Quip Modest, I find hard to put into words, something like "I like it that way".
18:49:20 <jcowan> 7) The Retort Courteous: "My opinion is otherwise."
18:49:31 <redmonk> what the heck are we discussing, anyway?
18:49:34 <sbp> Quip Modest: you like it your own way, you mean?
18:49:41 <sbp> redmonk: degrees of pointing out lies
18:49:57 <jcowan> The list is from As You Like It IV:iii, but the definitions are from Brewer's.
18:50:21 <jcowan> Not of pointing out lies, but of disagreeing.
18:50:34 <redmonk> fascinating: i thought it sounded Shakespearean
18:50:45 <sbp> IV iii? really?
18:51:49 <redmonk> interesting topic at some point: etymological similarities between "fascinating" and "fascism"
18:51:50 <sbp> ah, V iv
18:51:58 <jcowan> Woops.
18:52:12 <libby> *** libby has quit (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
18:52:29 <xover> .ety fascinating
18:52:35 <jcowan> That was quite a screwup. Somehow the scene number turned into an act number, and then bred a new scene number.
18:52:41 <xover> .ety fascism
18:52:41 <eikeon> *** eikeon has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:52:42 <phenny> fascinating: Latin fascinatus, past participle of fascinare, from fascinum evil spell
18:52:54 <phenny> fascism: no etymology found
18:53:05 <jcowan> The connection is between the snake-charmer's stick and the bundle of sticks carried by the Roman consul's lictorsa.
18:53:09 <jcowan> lictors, even.
18:53:17 <eikeon> *** eikeon (~eikeon@dsl092-168-236.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #swhack
18:53:29 <sbp> hmm. jcowan's two levels down from Touchstone
18:53:35 <xover> .ety fascism
18:53:48 <phenny> fascism: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
18:54:10 <libby> *** libby (~libby@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
18:54:13 <sbp> *** sbp has changed the topic to: "You are as small as the difference between the square of the difference between my little pony and your big hairy hound and the cube of your sorry little codpiece." - SPL, Example Place, Somehow the scene number turned into an act number, and then bred a new scene number.
18:54:22 <sbp> *** sbp has changed the topic to: "You are as small as the difference between the square of the difference between my little pony and your big hairy hound and the cube of your sorry little codpiece." - SPL, Example Play, Somehow the scene number turned into an act number, and then bred a new scene number.
18:54:32 <xover> Meh! Significant leading whitespace.
18:54:48 <sbp> hmm?
18:55:35 <xover> .ety fascism
18:55:38 <sbp> ah
18:55:48 <phenny> fascism: no etymology found
18:55:59 <redmonk> that's what you get for writing in python
18:56:12 <redmonk> * redmonk mocks xover
18:56:23 <sbp> presumably this is the fault of m-w, which is unlikely to be written in Python
18:56:35 <xover> I've written something in Python?
18:56:39 <redmonk> ah
18:56:47 <redmonk> oh, i'm just being contrary
18:56:52 <redmonk> the facts are no obstacle
18:56:52 <sbp> no you're not
18:56:55 <Arnia> * Arnia hugs the python
18:57:03 <redmonk> heh
18:57:10 <sbp> *** sbp has changed the topic to: Somehow the scene number turned into an act number, and then bred a new scene number.
18:57:13 <xover> * xover snaps a picture of this phallic metafor...
18:57:18 <sbp> *** sbp has changed the topic to: <jcowan> Somehow the scene number turned into an act number, and then bred a new scene number.
18:57:24 <sbp> there we go
18:57:49 <sbp> metafor? are you getting all spelling reform on our bitch asses?
18:58:08 <jcowan> sbp: presumably this is the fault of sbp for failing to strip leading spaces.
18:58:11 <jcowan> .ety fascism
18:58:22 <sbp> yes. and probably trailing too
18:58:23 <phenny> fascism: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
18:58:27 <sbp> .ety fascism
18:58:28 <xover> Nah, just too shocked as I realized my association went Python->Snake->Porn(!).
18:58:40 <phenny> fascism: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
18:58:44 <xover> * xover must have been looking at far too much pron lately...
18:58:46 <sbp> ah, no, good
18:58:56 <jcowan> * jcowan hopes there is one day a Python release called "Bi-Coloured-Rock"
18:59:13 <sbp> * sbp tries to shoehorn pron into all leads rome to... what? all roads lead to rome, and fails
19:01:54 <jcowan> sbp: A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a meta for? --Hen3ry.
19:04:13 <sbp> hmm. McLuhan
19:04:24 <sbp> coolness
19:08:29 <Monty> sbp: You asked me to remind you to verb contrastive focus reduplications
19:08:35 <sbp> thanks Monty
19:08:38 <Monty> http://www.sirc.org/graphics/kate2.GIF
19:10:21 <jcowan> It is conjectured that the mysterious "Hanlon" of Hanlon's Razor, "Never attribute to malice what is sufficiently explained by stupidity" is in fact a corruption of "Heinlein".
19:10:47 <jcowan> Probably as passed through Southern U.S. dialect.
19:10:54 <sbp> did Heinlein indeed say that?
19:10:57 <xover> @google fight Tolkien Tolkein
19:10:59 <sbp> and is there indeed no antedating?
19:11:06 <supybot> xover: Tolkien: 1420000, Tolkein: 33900
19:11:51 <xover> Hmm. Must be the crowd I hang with that can't spell worth shit.
19:11:55 <jcowan> Farber's Fifth Law (of 4): You have taken yourself too seriously.
19:12:24 <sbp> so it's a trilawgy?
19:12:32 <jcowan> Or worse.
19:12:42 <jcowan> "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity." --R.A.H., "Logic of Empire"
19:13:32 <jcowan> Counterclaim at http://www.statusq.org/archives/2001/11/26 that Hanlon really existed, although his sharing the praenomen "Robert" with R.A.H. makes me suspicious.
19:13:47 <sbp> .gc praenomen
19:14:00 <phenny> praenomen: 11,700
19:14:03 <sbp> ah good
19:14:12 <sbp> I think my official scare point is at about 50,000
19:14:17 <xover> .w praenomen
19:14:24 <sbp> obviously first name
19:14:30 <phenny> praenomen 1. the first name of a citizen of ancient Rome
19:14:50 <sbp> and people say we need logical languages...
19:14:57 <sbp> English *is* logical, in places
19:15:02 <jcowan> Have I told the anecdote about Pittsburgh fandom and Asimov's name?
19:15:07 <sbp> nope
19:15:52 <jcowan> I met a Pittsburgh (Pennsylvania) fan who always referred to Asimov as /@'zim@v/ (uh-ZEE-muv).
19:16:18 <jcowan> I pointed out the error of this; he replied that all of Pittsburgh fandom used this pronunciation.
19:16:50 <jcowan> I mentioned an article where Asimov compares his name to the word "azimuth", saying that it's pronounced the same except for the final consonant.
19:17:17 <jcowan> He retorted with scorn that they knew that perfectly well, and that "azimuth" was pronounced /@'zim@T/ (uh-ZEE-muth)!
19:17:22 <sbp> ha!
19:17:25 <jcowan> I gave up.
19:18:12 <jcowan> [[[
19:18:16 <jcowan> When Isaac's at a nudist camp
19:18:20 <jcowan> He always joins the fun
19:18:29 <jcowan> For "When in Rome"'s his favorite quote
19:18:33 <jcowan> As he tells everyone.
19:18:38 <jcowan> So when the signal they send out
19:18:43 <jcowan> "All clothing you must doff"
19:18:48 <jcowan> Without a moment's hesitation
19:18:52 <jcowan> Isaac Asimov.
19:18:53 <jcowan> ]]]
19:18:58 <sbp> oh dear...
19:19:05 <sbp> that was truly badgreat
19:19:13 <Arnia> I think it would be cool if all English was pronounced with a geordie accent
19:19:20 <jcowan> It is!
19:19:52 <Arnia> It was
19:20:12 <jcowan> What, have they taken to talking RP (or Aussie) on Tyne?
19:20:18 <sbp> * sbp is reminded of the turn-of-the-century geordie sketch on the Fast Show
19:20:35 <sbp> Aus on the Tyne is all mine all mine...
19:20:36 <Arnia> I think investing in an intensive exposure to Byker Grove for all americans would be profitable
19:20:42 <sbp> heh, heh
19:20:49 <jcowan> But only if we can have subtitles.
19:20:59 <sbp> Byker. Grove! oom Byker. Byker. Grove!
19:21:17 <sbp> the world's most irritating theme song
19:21:18 <Arnia> I know an american who needed subtitles for the South London (Sarf Landan) accent
19:21:24 <jcowan> Not surprising.
19:21:33 <Arnia> And thought it was a liverpool accent
19:21:36 <jcowan> Most Americans outside the port cities rarely hear non-American accents.
19:21:51 <jcowan> Indeed, most Americans can't tell Aussie from Cockney reliably.
19:22:05 <sbp> Aussie is mutated Cockney
19:22:19 <jcowan> With other things mixed in: Aussies pronounce their aitches, for one.
19:22:21 <sbp> Cockney Convicts + Screwing Face Up From The Sun = Aussie
19:22:45 <Arnia> Lots of East Anglian (Norfolk etc) in Australian accents
19:22:53 <sbp> (via some actress who had to play an Aussie part)
19:23:32 <sbp> she did a really neat demonstration
19:24:28 <jcowan> New Englander descends from an earlier version of E.A.
19:25:09 <jcowan> Indeed, I know Americans (and not ignorant ones) who can't tell Hiberno-English from Scottish Standard English.
19:25:15 <jcowan> [[[
19:25:17 <jcowan> I met a man the other day --
19:25:17 <jcowan> A kindly man, and serious --
19:25:17 <jcowan> Who viewed me in a thoughtful way,
19:25:17 <jcowan> And spoke me so, and spoke me thus:
19:25:17 <jcowan> "Oh, dallying's a sad mistake;
19:25:19 <jcowan> 'Tis craven to survey the morrow!
19:25:21 <uche> *** uche (~uogbuji@c-67-164-179-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
19:25:21 <jcowan> Go give your heart, and if it break-
19:25:23 <jcowan> A wise companion is Sorrow.
19:25:27 <jcowan> "Oh, live, my child, nor keep your soul
19:25:29 <jcowan> To crowd your coffin when you're dead...."
19:25:31 <jcowan> I asked his work; he dealt in coal,
19:25:33 <jcowan> And shipped it up the Tyne, he said.
19:25:35 <jcowan> ]]] --Dorothy Parker
19:25:39 <jcowan> Ho, uche.
19:26:02 <uche> Hi john
19:26:04 <phenny> uche: 17:27Z <sbp> tell uche what about an XPath-like interface for Amara? summary: elem/'@something', elem/'b', see very naive implementation at http://paste.lisp.org/display/7539
19:26:17 <sbp> (I like the weblog entry approach too though)
19:26:19 <uche> whoa
19:26:33 <Arnia> I wonder how much Bucks there is in the Pennsylvanian accents. Given the strong association of my county with the US, I would be surprised if there wasn't any
19:26:37 <deltab> I'd prefer elem['@something']
19:26:40 <uche> I feel like the mouse that strolled in among the cats
19:26:50 <jcowan> sbp: you gave him the warning?
19:26:59 <sbp> Monty: get the sharp rimmed hat out!
19:26:59 <Monty> Please go on.
19:27:02 <sbp> jcowan: I did, aye
19:27:08 <uche> No. Odd Job. Noooooooo!
19:27:19 <deltab> in fact I've used it with minidom (one-line implementation)
19:27:38 <jcowan> [gangster mode] Sbp told me you was lookin' for me.
19:27:57 <Arnia> * Arnia throws a small seagull at sbp
19:28:05 <jcowan> That would be a COMBINING SEAGULL BELOW.
19:28:06 <sbp> delltab: hmm. has the advatage that you can use ints consistently
19:28:16 <sbp> .cp COMBINING SEAGULL BELOW
19:28:20 <uche> Yeah, my peeps said you was disrespectin' my hood
19:28:21 <phenny> 033C: COMBINING SEAGULL BELOW (̼)
19:28:34 <kandinski> *** kandinski has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
19:28:35 <uche> I caught your new blog
19:28:39 <sbp> * sbp hurls a ̼ back at Arnia
19:28:41 <jcowan> Ah, excellent!
19:28:42 <uche> And i saw the mention of IRC hang-out
19:28:52 <jcowan> Well, here you are.
19:28:53 <uche> So i just came to hang out
19:28:57 <uche> Yup
19:29:15 <uche> sbp has learned me some of the proceedings
19:29:17 <jcowan> #swhack is the lightweight channel for heavyweight people with middleweight bots and RANDOM CARNAGE!!
19:29:20 <uche> including al the wacky-ass bots
19:29:35 <uche> I like the RANDOM CARNAGE bit
19:29:37 <sbp> except phenny, who we didn't get round to but who you'll pick up
19:29:46 <uche> Seems to be d8uv's speciality?
19:29:51 <jcowan> And the rules about not breaking into other people's [[[ ... ]]] multi-line strings.
19:29:54 <Arnia> phenny: monty wants to chat
19:29:54 <sbp> heh, heh. d8uv and increasingly Arnia, yes
19:29:58 <Monty> site:ccil.org teddybot: Can you is conjectured that some pretty serious?
19:29:58 <teddybot> I see.
19:30:01 <uche> Oh oh
19:30:03 <uche> Hmm.
19:30:04 <sbp> disables that, Arnia
19:30:08 <sbp> er, -ed
19:30:14 <jcowan> uche: behold.
19:30:17 <uche> I usually code bots to only get multi-line stuff from one nick
19:30:18 <libby> *** libby has quit (Connection timed out)
19:30:22 <Arnia> sbp: baaah
19:30:27 <jcowan> @echo: phenny: tell monty X
19:30:30 <Monty> If you had any friends, they would all act rather like cheque!
19:30:35 <sbp> no colon
19:30:42 <jcowan> @echo phenny: tell monty X
19:30:43 <supybot> phenny: tell monty X
19:30:43 <Monty> isn't it atm
19:30:45 <Monty> darn fence was already found.
19:30:46 <phenny> supybot: I'll pass that on for you when monty is around.
19:30:47 <Monty> h
19:30:48 <phenny> Monty: 19:30Z <supybot> tell Monty X
19:30:51 <Monty> Gives me on IRC costs money first though maybe "un idiota"
19:31:24 <jcowan> One line of input, seven lines of bot response.
19:31:34 <jcowan> * jcowan is immensely proud of this demo.
19:31:42 <Arnia> We should set up a second Monty and have them talk to each other
19:31:43 <Monty> BAD
19:31:48 <sbp> heh, heh
19:31:49 <Arnia> Monty: GOOD
19:31:51 <jcowan> Gak, Arnia. Unthinkable.
19:31:51 <mattis> *** mattis (~mattis@pD9E7FB30.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #swhack
19:31:53 <Monty> wow i like "mickesh", I remember when does seem to deport my team being secretive
19:32:02 <Arnia> jcowan: A study in language evolution?
19:32:03 <uche> Jeez
19:32:17 <uche> The bots are loonier than I'd thought
19:32:22 <jcowan> Yawanna do that, do it in some other channel.
19:32:24 <uche> cool, though
19:32:24 <xover> Now set the leet filter on supybot and let `im loose.
19:32:26 <sbp> generally we try to keep the output down as much as possible; with phenny I never have her reply more than three lines at a time, and try to keep the lengths down too. when overused, they can get really annoying, but they're very handy used properly
19:32:31 <crschmidt> jcowan: I got 13 lines back when tweaker used to be here.
19:32:37 <jcowan> Right.
19:33:00 <crschmidt> Wasn't sure if you ever saw that.
19:33:02 <crschmidt> I was proud of it :)
19:33:35 <jcowan> Arnia: I think the main Bucks > PA influence is in the matter of place names.
19:34:02 <uche> OK, I seem to recall someone asked me a question
19:34:09 <uche> Ah yes. __div__ for Amara
19:34:25 <uche> Craeg Strong suggested that when Anobind was new, but I rejected the idea
19:34:33 <kandinski> *** kandinski (~candyman@gamma.sinetgy.com) has joined #swhack
19:34:34 <uche> I preder to keep the Python Python and the XPath XPath
19:34:37 <sbp> it was more of a random musing. as I say, I think I like the proposed solution more
19:34:46 <sbp> or deltab's
19:34:55 <uche> I can't keep them all straight
19:34:55 <Arnia> jcowan: Well... Penn is a village here with Penn Street as a hamlet
19:35:11 <uche> Did one of them *not* involve overliading __div__?
19:35:16 <sbp> Pennsylvania was named after the man
19:35:23 <sbp> where he got his name from is another matter
19:35:30 <Arnia> sbp: William Penn... from Penn
19:35:33 <uche> http://paste.lisp.org/display/7539 seems to be a __div_- hack
19:35:34 <deltab> uche: mine: elem['@something']
19:35:38 <sbp> uche:
19:35:40 <uche> Ah
19:35:40 <sbp> [20:26] <deltab> I'd prefer elem['@something']
19:35:48 <sbp> [20:27] <deltab> in fact I've used it with minidom (one-line implementation)
19:35:52 <uche> Well, Jeremy proposed that, but again I decided against
19:35:52 <sbp> [20:28] <sbp> deltab: hmm. has the advatage that you can use ints consistently
19:35:55 <deltab> doc['//foo/bar/baz/@something']
19:36:50 <jcowan> Arnia: lots of Bucks placenames are Welshy, like lots of Eastern PA placenames.
19:36:57 <sbp> Arnia: he was actually from Penn?
19:36:58 <uche> Elements versus attributes in Amara (Includes discussion of why I don't want to use the mapping protocol to access attributes): http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-04-18/Elements_v
19:36:59 <swhacker> posted 756
19:37:24 <uche> See the example docs
19:37:30 <Arnia> sbp: If he wasn't then his family definitely was.
19:37:47 <Arnia> jcowan: Welshy? I don't see much welshness here
19:37:48 <sbp> what's the etymology of Penn?
19:37:50 <uche> <a attr="x"><b>x</b><b>y</b></a>
19:38:10 <jcowan> Welsh _pen_ probably.
19:38:22 <uche> I think most people would expect to call "a.attr" to get u"x"
19:38:22 <deltab> easy to implement, though: xml.dom.minidom.Element.__getitem__ = lambda node, expr: xml.xpath.Query(expr, node)
19:38:29 <Arnia> jcowan: Place names around here are Mercian
19:38:32 <uche> Sure. ery easy
19:38:38 <Arnia> .ety Penn
19:38:41 <uche> I actually implemented, then deleted it
19:38:47 <jcowan> Pennsylvania was actually named by Penn after his father, Sir William Penn the admiral.
19:38:51 <phenny> Penn: no etymology found
19:38:58 <uche> I didn't want to proliferate the options too much
19:39:22 <uche> There is a Python tool that uses the __div__ hack, though, FWIW
19:39:28 <uche> I think I mentioned it in my last column
19:39:31 <uche> * uche roots
19:39:42 <Arnia> http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/satellite/9476/pennloc.htm
19:41:07 <Arnia> This site is pretty cool for a bucks boy... http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/satellite/9476/locationsindex.htm
19:41:09 <sbp> "The old English word tun means a settlement and this is found in Bilston, Darlaston and Wolverhampton. Penn is the old English word for a hill or promontory which must refer to the high ground around St. Bartholomew s Church." - http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/articles/Penn/history/AngloSaxons.htm
19:41:25 <jcowan> s/English/British/, I think.
19:41:47 <sbp> uche: I derived the idea from Arnia's RDF Path implementation in Python
19:41:54 <sbp> jcowan: yeah, sounds most likely
19:42:28 <sbp> hill was beorg in OE
19:42:29 <Arnia> sbp: Its not mine, I'm just using it
19:42:58 <sbp> okay
19:43:09 <jcowan> Arnia: I note Chetwood in Bucks cited as a hybrid Welsh/English name.
19:43:18 <uche> Bah. Can't find it
19:43:30 <sbp> there are lots of little Celticisms all over Britain
19:43:47 <sbp> sometimes you find concentrations, but I doubt that Bucks is a resplendent example of it
19:44:01 <sbp> lots of rivers avon, for example
19:44:05 <Arnia> jcowan: Bucks has lots of names given by the Bucca tribe, but they aren't welsh names
19:45:36 <sbp> http://www.yorksj.ac.uk/dialect/gfx/celtriv.gif
19:45:56 <jcowan> JRRT on the Act of Union (from memory, may be a bit off) "In the quite unnecessary quest for a common name, the English were officially deprived of their Englishry and the Welsh of their claim to be the primary inheritors of the name 'British'"
19:46:02 <sbp> from http://www.yorksj.ac.uk/dialect/celtpn.htm which also has a nice diagram for Yorkshire
19:47:26 <jcowan> Thanks, nice page, though it doesn't mention the spectacular etymology of Roseberry Topping.
19:47:27 <sbp> Welgland would've been good
19:47:34 <sbp> Roseberry Topping?
19:47:47 <jcowan> "My viewpoint is that of a Sayce and not a Waugh." --JRRT
19:47:53 <sbp> er, Walgland. or Engles
19:48:01 <jcowan> A mountain in Yorkshire.
19:48:44 <sbp> hey, it was once Rosesbeorg
19:49:06 <jcowan> But before that it was Oðinsbeorg, and is the only surviving feature in all England named after a pagan god.
19:49:18 <sbp> I always get worried when picking OE words from vocabulary lists that they weren't actually widely used
19:49:18 <jcowan> s/named/still named
19:49:28 <jcowan> Yeah, a tricky point.
19:49:36 <sbp> and yeah. got it from http://blog.whatfettle.com/archives/000135.html
19:49:39 <jcowan> There's a Chinese word for "brown", but it's very rare.
19:49:54 <sbp> why would it be rare?
19:50:14 <Arnia> The Meeting House in Jordans burnt down the other week
19:50:25 <jcowan> Unfortunate.
19:50:28 <sbp> (which mentions you, of course)
19:50:46 <jcowan> Because Chinese people see brown things as basically orange or yellow (at low saturation).
19:50:47 <Arnia> Almost took the Mayflower Barn down with it
19:51:06 <jcowan> Arrgh, repeating myself again.
19:51:56 <jcowan> Roseberry T. is only 320m = 1050 ft, so perhaps "mountain" was hyperbole.
19:52:13 <sbp> it's not how much of a mountain it is, it's how much it slopes off
19:52:29 <sbp> http://bubl.ac.uk/org/tacit/marilyns/chapter1.htm
19:53:00 <Arnia> bubl?
19:53:14 <sbp> the BUBL Logo
19:53:14 <sbp> BUBL Information Service
19:53:22 <sbp> * sbp stomps Firefox
19:53:35 <jcowan> * jcowan would like to slope off, but face time is still a requirement.
19:53:36 <sbp> hosted by Strathclyde University
19:54:12 <jcowan> "Munro ignored England and Wales."
19:54:37 <sbp> like a true Scot
19:54:48 <Arnia> Some great photos of my county on this site... good to show people the 'nice side' of Bucks
19:55:43 <jcowan> "So we can say that although the Cape Wrath peninsula reaches no great height, it clearly has positive kurtosis as it contains eight Marilyns. "
19:55:55 <sbp> great, innit?
19:57:22 <jcowan> "Hundreds of hills in the Scottish highlands are virtually closed to walkers for a few months each year so that deer and grouse can be safely shot without being disturbed."
19:57:35 <Arnia> What is up with TV using Bucks accent, culture and places but renaming stuff? Midsomer Murders and the Vicar of Dibley both did it...
19:57:55 <sbp> so there isn't a great influx of tourists?
19:58:43 <jcowan> Arnia: must be your excessively nasty libel laws.
19:59:32 <jcowan> I note that our author classifies the IM under Scotland, which may have linguistic validity, but!
20:00:18 <uche> * uche comes to the ralization that he's surrounded by a gand of SaxJutAngs
20:00:28 <uche> gang
20:00:31 <uche> realization
20:00:47 <jcowan> uche: Not I. I am a pure Hiberno-Deutscher.
20:00:49 <sbp> SaxJutAngNorms
20:00:59 <uche> Norm? Where?
20:01:04 <uche> Beat 'em off!
20:01:16 <sbp> well they're FrenViks
20:01:35 <sbp> which is so hilarious a thought we didn't pay any mind when they invaded
20:01:46 <uche> Great. EirieNorms as well
20:01:49 <jcowan> You leave Norm alone. He's a fine fellow.
20:01:49 <uche> Erie
20:02:06 <sbp> we should drag ndw in here one day
20:02:10 <uche> * uche quakes
20:02:10 <sbp> kicking and screaming...
20:02:24 <uche> Would be fun
20:02:59 <uche> Bring a New England tint?
20:03:10 <sbp> we've already got that in Morbus (well not anymore) and crschmidt
20:03:23 <jcowan> Did Morb officially leave, or just kinda drop off the face of?
20:03:32 <sbp> the earth, yes pretty much
20:03:35 <crschmidt> I'm not really all that New England though
20:03:46 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim (~none@82-43-210-159.cable.ubr10.newm.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
20:03:49 <sbp> he's not been posting to his regular blog, but he has been Ghylling and emailing
20:04:01 <crschmidt> Growing up in the Midwest during my formative years took its toll.
20:04:09 <jcowan> [[[
20:04:11 <jcowan> Whether they support it wrt *anyType* in particular is a potentially
20:04:11 <jcowan> separate question. Whether they even _should_ support it wrt
20:04:11 <jcowan> *anyType* is a matter for Schema REC language lawyers with
20:04:11 <jcowan> fine-toothed combs, high-power time-travel-enabled magnifying glasses
20:04:11 <jcowan> and infinite precision. Hence the likely need for a WG note if we go
20:04:12 <jcowan> this route.
20:04:14 <jcowan> ]]]
20:04:23 <jcowan> ("they" = "XML Schema processors"
20:04:24 <jcowan> )
20:04:31 <jcowan> --ht
20:04:58 <sbp> bjoern found a great htism earlier
20:05:06 <sbp> [[[
20:05:06 <sbp> For those worried about the fact that the SDforSD has
20:05:06 <sbp> blockDefault="#all", which means you can't redefine anything, that's
20:05:08 <uche> Good old Henry
20:05:12 <sbp> overriden (I claim) by 3.4.7 [1], the built-in definition of the ur type,
20:05:12 <sbp> which has final _and_ prohibitedSubstitutions as the empty set!
20:05:17 <sbp> ]]] - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2005Apr/0041
20:05:21 <uche> sorry
20:05:24 <uche> misse the [[[
20:05:34 <sbp> no problem, it's your ass in the air not mine
20:05:40 <jcowan> This one is from the same thread.
20:05:48 <sbp> cool
20:05:58 <sbp> (ass in the air: cf. the swhackfaq)
20:06:02 <sbp> .g swhackfaq
20:06:05 <jcowan> XML Schema is the PL/I of the 21st century
20:06:15 <phenny> swhackfaq: http://infomesh.net/2002/swhackfaq/
20:06:31 <uche> So phenny's a googlebot, too?
20:06:34 <sbp> under "You shall not". it's all a bit out of date
20:06:43 <xover> http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2005-04-18
20:06:48 <xover> * xover is speechless
20:07:00 <sbp> yeah, she has various functions: relaying messages, googling, google counting, looking up codepoints, relaying from xena, etc.
20:07:07 <sbp> phenny: help?
20:07:09 <phenny> I'm datum's replacement, phenny. My commands include:
20:07:13 <phenny> cp, ety, g, gc, img, map, mw, pc, repres, seen, swhack, t, tell, thesaurus, val, w, xena
20:07:17 <phenny> For help: 'phenny: help command?' My owner is sbp.
20:07:20 <phenny> Documentation: http://inamidst.com/phenny/
20:07:30 <uche> Ya'll are fuckin off yer tits :-)
20:08:06 <xover> Weaned?
20:08:18 <jcowan> * jcowan notes "xoot" in the swhackfaq and googles for it, finding xoot.org, which looks very interesting indeed.
20:08:20 <uche> I prefer preiphrasis
20:08:25 <uche> periphrasis
20:08:28 <uche> Can't type
20:08:29 <uche> ever
20:08:36 <jcowan> So say we all (periphrasis)
20:08:50 <sbp> xoot... oh good grief yeah. a random interloper who caused havoc for a while
20:09:12 <xover> .w periphrasis
20:09:25 <sbp> annoying that it doesn't say what <xsl:value-of select='@name'/> becomes in xoot
20:09:25 <phenny> periphrasis 1. a style that involves indirect ways of expressing things
20:09:49 <jcowan> Note "Turorial" in the navbar.
20:09:58 <xover> * xover considers #swhack his very own personal Word of the Day...
20:10:03 <sbp> you want me to click a link? the effort!
20:10:17 <jcowan> I know.
20:10:18 <uche> Wow. Zoot is way trippy
20:10:21 <uche> Xoot
20:10:28 <jcowan> It's much easier to hold down the spacebar while sleeping than it is to click.
20:11:05 <sbp> YAYAML
20:13:14 <jcowan> Another deep back-burner project is to design a really satisfying compact syntax for XSLT.
20:13:35 <uche> Only if you use the whole BMP
20:13:43 <uche> Heck, throw in the astral planes
20:13:57 <uche> I'd love to see some really artistic syntaz for XSLT
20:14:00 <jcowan> Not *that* compact.
20:14:04 <uche> ;-)
20:15:31 <sbp> an XSLT comprised entirely of U+4DC0 to U+4DFF
20:16:42 <jcowan> Even Michael Everson is glad he can delegate Han.
20:17:37 <jcowan> yet another is write a compiler for Dibol-11.
20:17:44 <jcowan> or maybe ANSI Dibol.
20:18:53 <sbp> where does Dibol come in the Great Programming Language Family Tree?
20:19:24 <jcowan> A simplified offshoot of Cobol: stands for DIgital (Equipment Corporation)'s Business Oriented Language.
20:19:33 <jcowan> Not as weird as Cobol syntactically, but semantically quite similar.
20:19:50 <sbp> ah, DEC's own proprietary Cobol?
20:20:31 <jcowan> I think it can be done with a bunch of C macros and an absolutely trivial compiler.
20:21:03 <jcowan> and maybe a little tiny library, although it would be cool if everything was inlined.
20:44:36 <Arnia> * Arnia ywans
20:45:34 <jcowan> On that note, I think I'll ittywhonk. Ywans are contagious, yknow.
20:45:37 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
20:45:40 <jcowan> *** jcowan has quit ("Bailing out")
20:57:10 <AaronSw> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/7613422265cdc010
20:57:52 <redmonk> *** redmonk has quit ()
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20:58:14 <Arnia> AaronSw: That is a whole world of evil opened up
20:59:51 <AaronSw> taking bets on how long it is before sbp writes one?
21:00:38 <Arnia> He'll write an executable sonnet
21:02:55 <AaronSw> i think that's even a meta-limerick
21:03:12 <AaronSw> A Dutch mathematician most prophetic,
21:03:12 <AaronSw> Did invent a language, name herpetic.
21:03:12 <AaronSw> With design quite intelligent,
21:03:12 <AaronSw> And syntax mostly elegant,
21:03:13 <AaronSw> Big ideas could be made non-hypothetic.
21:03:26 <uche> Heh. Aaron, you're subject of conversation in e-mail :-)
21:03:45 <AaronSw> heh, as is your company
21:03:46 <uche> Apparently you own the 4Suite PyPI entry
21:03:57 <AaronSw> yeah, i just tried to log in but it won't let me
21:04:13 <uche> Oh. Didn't know someone had cc'ed you
21:04:27 <AaronSw> A Jeremy Kloth sent me an email
21:04:33 <uche> Ah. I see.
21:04:51 <uche> It's all fuzzy how such things work in PyPI
21:04:59 <uche> For example, how does one add owners?
21:05:00 <AaronSw> yeah, and it seems to have quite a few bugs
21:05:09 <uche> Indeed
21:05:16 <uche> Thanks for the original porsing, though
21:05:25 <uche> Way back in the 0.11 days :-)
21:05:32 <AaronSw> heh
21:06:03 <AaronSw> Hm, there's already a bug on this.
21:06:07 <AaronSw> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1178266&group_id=66150&atid=513503
21:06:14 <supybot> Bug #1178266: Login failure on password reset; Resolution: None; Date Submitted: 2005-04-06 21:49; Submitted By: David Mertz; Assigned To: Nobody/Anonymous; Priority: 5; Status: Open
21:07:20 <uche> Hmmm
21:10:56 <AaronSw> that's an interesting feature
21:11:11 <uche> ACME lock-out
21:11:22 <uche> patent pending
21:11:28 <AaronSw> heh
21:12:26 <AaronSw> What possesses contest people to give raffle off gift certificates to unrelated stores? I mean, I can understand if it's your store or if the store donated the gift certificate, but that rarely seems to be the case.
21:12:38 <Arnia> I could write some wonderful papers on pragmatic ontologies after this dissertation...
21:13:00 <AaronSw> And I can sort of understand giving people gift certificates -- it shows you know at least a little about them -- but there's no way to know a contest winner in advance.
21:13:55 <AaronSw> New: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html
21:14:16 <AaronSw> (I get an eight-word thanks this time!)
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21:36:00 <lonur> monty, what comes after 1?
21:36:06 <Monty> Did invent a few weeks from Arnia's RDF Path implementation in fact I've got to read this one
21:36:30 <Arnia> Monty: I'll email you the links
21:36:31 <Monty> Note "Turorial" in
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22:05:25 <redmonk> *** redmonk (~steve@216.185.189.146) has joined #swhack
22:14:12 <deltab> sbp: great idea using hexagrams for XSLT!
22:14:43 <deltab> they fit surprisingly well
22:15:00 <deltab> for example: DIFFICULTY AT THE BEGINNING would be perfect for DTDs
22:15:53 <Arnia> It would also allow us to use FUCKUP as the super-computer to process said XML
22:16:02 <sbp> deltab: heh!
22:16:21 <sbp> I've written a sonnet in Python code; it's a whole useful program
22:16:29 <sbp> I'll post it to miscoranda once I've checked it fully
22:16:47 <Arnia> Oh dear god
22:17:07 <Arnia> * Arnia encodes sbp in hexagrams
22:19:06 <AaronSw> told you!
22:19:40 <Arnia> AaronSw: Yes... I'll buy you a pangalactic gargle blaster next time you're in the north-east
22:20:03 <AaronSw> I'm not sure whether to thank you or avoid the north-east.
22:20:28 <Arnia> Ah, you have to come and visit Newcastle and Durham :p
22:20:44 <Arnia> I'll get some ol' janx spirit just for you
22:21:05 <AaronSw> so we're talking northeast UK here?
22:21:20 <Arnia> Yes
22:26:09 <AaronSw> anyone have any opinions on the book _Armies of the Poor_
22:29:01 <bskahan> *** bskahan (~bskahan@pool-70-19-106-133.ny325.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
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22:34:26 <d8uv> Yo
22:36:20 <Arnia> Yo-yo?
22:36:30 <Arnia> * Arnia walks the d8uv
22:37:16 <d8uv> GG
22:37:26 <sbp> http://miscoranda.com/139
22:38:01 <AaronSw> a fear is not a challenge!
22:38:16 <AaronSw> unless you're some sort of monster, like godzilla
22:39:14 <AaronSw> Bob: Hey, Joe, how much you want to bet Godzilla walks in that door right now?
22:39:14 <AaronSw> Joe: Give me a break, Godzilla isn't going to come in _here_.
22:39:14 <AaronSw> Godzilla: Oh geez, not again -- I was just in the middle of _Committed_. [stomp stomp stomp]
22:39:40 <sbp> I'm afraid that's exactly the case
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22:40:17 <AaronSw> doc are em doctyoe tee enn are ess ess?
22:40:17 <libby> *** libby (~libby@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
22:40:17 <Monty> welcome, libby
22:40:26 <AaronSw> s/doctyoe/doctype/
22:40:39 <sbp> yep
22:41:43 <AaronSw> Godzilla isn't very funny.
22:42:15 <themaximus_> *** themaximus_ (max@themaximus.user) has joined #swhack
22:42:15 <Monty> hey themaximus_
22:42:17 <sbp> he does standup every night in Tokyo
22:42:45 <AaronSw> I wish Google Local could tell me what's in various stores
22:42:53 <sbp> "How many residents of Tokyo does it take to change a lightbulb? [STOMP STOMP STOMP] NONE BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE LEFT, RRERAUAARGH!"
22:43:01 <AaronSw> lol!
22:43:19 <AaronSw> * AaronSw is still laughing
22:43:24 <AaronSw> i'm not sure why that's so funny
22:43:30 <sbp> he's pretty good
22:44:01 <AaronSw> man, google local is seriously borked
22:44:09 <AaronSw> next time i'm in tokyo... definitely
22:44:12 <sbp> yeah. doesn't have anything in the UK
22:45:02 <AaronSw> does jillzilla ever sub in for him?
22:45:08 <AaronSw> like when he goes on vacation
22:47:16 <sbp> I think she's his operative in the occidental
22:49:38 <AaronSw> i'm having a terrible time finding a place to buy latex gloves around here
22:49:59 <AaronSw> i never should have thrown mine out
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22:51:57 <AaronSw> I remember sitting there as I was packing thinking, "this is silly, when am i ever going to need to act out a violent scene from an obscure joss whedon show"
22:52:06 <AaronSw> which was absurd, because they take up hardly any space
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22:54:52 <AaronSw> Hm, you know your book is bad when the product description sounds like a review
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23:24:09 <sbp> gah, my ISP
23:24:18 <sbp> so I sent a note to comp.lang.python and it hasn't come through
23:24:27 <sbp> and now looking at the archives it seems they're a bit... sporadic
23:29:41 <sbp> whoops
23:29:52 <sbp> missed escaping a < in the <pre>
23:30:14 <sbp> fixared
23:36:59 <thelsdj> is that like the opposite of fuxored?
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23:37:07 <thelsdj> so when something is fuxored you fixar it?
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23:47:08 <d8uv> ...!
23:53:12 <lonur_> monty, what goes after 2?
23:53:13 <Monty> hehh
23:53:28 <lonur_> monty, what goes after 1000?
23:53:33 <Monty> killfiled hydrogen Sawfish smacks impotent tomatoes and Zelda hydrogen shuttle!!!
23:53:58 <crschmidt> * crschmidt curses sbp for his good idlerpg luck
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