Swhack! 4 June 2005
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00:56:30 <AaronSw> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/season1finale
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01:01:01 <lonur> if it is a crime to have lack of empathy, I'd be in jail numerous times for my lack of empathy for others
01:01:13 <lonur> how are you Aaron?
01:01:24 <AaronSw> well, i heard in law school that some people have passed so-called "Seinfeld laws" about that
01:01:37 <AaronSw> nothing in wikipedia
01:02:15 <lonur> I lived a "what's good for me" life and did not have empathy.
01:02:40 <lonur> until the time I realized how worthless my life was, tried to drown myself
01:06:23 <AaronSw> sorry, i have to go get dinner now. bbl
01:06:33 <crschmidt> AaronSw: Good samaritan laws, might be a better search term
01:10:30 <deltab> that usually means "A law providing immunity from liability to a good samaritan (as an off-duty physician) whose negligent administration of aid causes injury" though
01:10:52 <deltab> i.e. indemnifying volunteers
01:10:53 <crschmidt> Ah, never mind then
01:12:50 <deltab> Quebec imposes a duty to help, though: http://www.cafb-acba.ca/english/GetInvolved-GoodSamaritanLaw.html
01:21:45 <deltab> AaronSw: "Fued" should be "Feud"
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01:51:22 <AaronSw> more like a bad samaritan law
01:51:53 <AaronSw> tx deltab, fixed
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02:01:55 <Monty> bah, it's AaronSw again
02:10:57 <crschmidt> .cp 000a
02:10:59 <phenny> 000A: <control> (
02:11:02 <phenny> )
02:12:12 <crschmidt> .cp 003b
02:12:14 <phenny> 003B: SEMICOLON (;)
02:12:18 <phenny> 037E: GREEK QUESTION MARK (;)
02:22:38 <kpreid> ooh! irc protocol implementation that doesn't break on \n!
02:22:45 <kpreid> s/break/fail/
02:22:58 <kpreid> .cp 0000
02:22:58 <crschmidt> heh, heh
02:23:00 <phenny> 0000: <control>
02:23:03 <phenny> 137C: ETHIOPIC NUMBER TEN THOUSAND (፼)
02:23:04 <phenny> 2182: ROMAN NUMERAL TEN THOUSAND (ↂ) [...]
02:23:22 <crschmidt> julie strips newlines before she spits the content out
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03:03:16 <patfm> greetings earthlings
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03:16:15 <AaronSw> manxome's dns server was down, i've moved it to run its own dnscache
03:24:38 <deltab> hmm, Jamster is a subsidiary of VeriSign
03:28:20 <AaronSw> the ringtone company?
03:28:38 <deltab> yes
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06:01:27 <jeannielap> eek!
06:01:34 <jeannielap> I was just in time for the split...
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06:56:27 <arcon> **__**
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11:23:44 <sbp> heh, heh. '# "Justification by faith" was unfinished at the deadline and met with the Mighty Stomp.' - http://gamegrene.com/wiki/User:Jcowan
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12:07:20 <MoiraAAafk> +x
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14:19:05 <sbp> .gc sitemap.gz
14:19:08 <phenny> exceptions.IOError: [Errno socket error] (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')
14:19:13 <sbp> ...
14:19:19 <sbp> sitemap.gz: 41
14:19:30 <sbp> sitemap.xml: 17,500
14:19:41 <sbp> sitemap.xml.gz: 39
14:20:08 <sbp> Google's sitemap-generator makes sitemap.xml.gz it seems
14:20:12 <sbp> so presumably it's fine
14:21:06 <crschmidt> Any filename you give it is fine
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14:22:24 <crschmidt> At least, according to http://groups-beta.google.com/group/google-sitemaps/messages/644e88d3080760ab,14ca219127cb508b,960d518b6733844a,1516310e40ab056d?hide_quotes=no#msg_1516310e40ab056d
14:25:24 <sbp> neato
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14:30:41 <sbp> * sbp submits his sitemap...
14:32:19 <JibberJim> submits it to who?
14:32:32 <deltab> Google, presumably
14:32:32 <JibberJim> I thought it was supposed to help everyone search better not just google?
14:32:46 <sbp> eventually, I guess
14:32:49 <JibberJim> so will they syndicate site maps with other people?
14:32:54 <deltab> I doubt others are ready to receive it yet
14:33:12 <JibberJim> but surely sbp's not going to submit his sitemap to everyone?
14:33:23 <sbp> see TAG issue 39 or whatever
14:33:37 <sbp> when the TAG resolve that, there'll be a standard way to point to such files, hopefully
14:33:40 <sbp> right?
14:34:02 <sbp> 36. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues#siteData-36
14:34:07 <deltab> people have already been suggesting autodiscovery
14:34:22 <deltab> <link rel="sitemap" ...>
14:34:27 <sbp> hmm
14:34:35 <sbp> not too bad, really
14:35:05 <jetscreamer> * jetscreamer waves
14:35:06 <sbp> but an HTTP header to a sitewide metadata thing would be better
14:35:08 <sbp> hey jetscreamer
14:35:19 <JibberJim> no!
14:35:19 <sbp> X-Sitemeta: /meta
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14:35:30 <sbp> why not? what if your / page is .txt or something?
14:35:48 <JibberJim> HTTP headers should only be sent where they're useful to the client.
14:35:54 <sbp> that way you can hit any point on the site and from there find favicons, robots.txt, etc.
14:35:59 <sbp> well of course they're useful to the client
14:36:12 <sbp> cf. favicons
14:36:15 <sbp> privacy policies
14:36:16 <sbp> etc.
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14:36:19 <JibberJim> the HTTP header just gets longer and longer almost none of it relevant to a single resource
14:36:30 <sbp> how would you solve it, then?
14:37:10 <JibberJim> GETMETA as that doesn't burden legacy clients who don't want this crap with the bandwidth of it
14:37:27 <sbp> hmm
14:37:39 <sbp> that does have the added advantage that you could put Title data etc. in it
14:37:51 <sbp> but... a new HTTP method? difficult to get support for
14:38:22 <deltab> WebDAV's already defined some
14:38:33 <deltab> PROPFIND
14:38:57 <sbp> yeah, but WebDAV's its own little planet
14:39:08 <sbp> this would force clients and servers to upgrade on a huge scale
14:39:12 <JibberJim> Planet WebDSV ?
14:39:21 <sbp> .g "Planet WebDAV"
14:39:23 <phenny> exceptions.IOError: [Errno socket error] (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')
14:39:25 <JibberJim> only clients who want crap stuff like a sitemap or a favicon...
14:39:40 <sbp> heh, top result is wmf
14:39:41 <sbp> "Hack the Planet: WebDAV as FS interface to ODB?"
14:39:42 <deltab> Accept-Metadata
14:39:54 <sbp> favicons are very useful
14:40:11 <sbp> deltab: interesting idea
14:40:30 <JibberJim> ah that's an idea deltab, the extra HTTP-headers MUST only be sent if the client indicates its ability to handle it...
14:40:59 <sbp> JibberJim: I thought they were just a glitzy-ditzy MS invention too at first, but they really help you to orientate yourself through bookmarks and tabs
14:41:10 <sbp> yeah, I like Accept-Metadata most of all
14:43:30 <deltab> though not under that name: the other Accept* headers mean "accept if type/charset/encoding/language is ..."
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14:43:51 <sbp> what'd you have the response be?
14:44:02 <chimezie> .gc favicons
14:44:05 <phenny> exceptions.IOError: [Errno socket error] (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')
14:44:10 <sbp> a) metadata in the body, b) metadata in the headers, c) pointer to metadata in the headers?
14:44:21 <chimezie> .g favicons
14:44:23 <phenny> exceptions.IOError: [Errno socket error] (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')
14:44:29 <sbp> Jim was thinking you meant b), whereas I was thinking you meant a)
14:44:44 <sbp> a bit like if you sent Accept: meta/data or something
14:45:18 <deltab> non-content-specific metadata doesn't belong in the body
14:45:49 <deltab> and may not even be possible to put there, depending on type (plain text, etc.)
14:46:03 <sbp> aye
14:46:20 <sbp> so something like:
14:46:21 <sbp> Metadata: sitemap /sitemap.gz.txt
14:46:28 <sbp> Metadata: robots /robots.txt
14:46:36 <sbp> Metadata: favicon /favicon.ico
14:46:39 <sbp> in the response header?
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14:46:46 <sbp> I think timbl spoke about this some time ago, too
14:47:07 <sbp> but not in conjunction with the Accept-Metadata idea, which is novel as far as I know
14:47:40 <sbp> then the content of Accept-Metadata could be the property names required
14:47:57 <sbp> Accept-Metadata: * for it all, Accept-Metdata: sitemap for the sitemap, etc.
14:47:57 <deltab> I meant (and should have said) a header that tells the server what metadata to send
14:48:15 <sbp> yeah, it was implied. a blank valued header would be weird
14:48:19 <sbp> just spelling it out
14:49:08 <deltab> teh Accept* headers affect the body though, and that's not what I meant
14:49:32 <JibberJim> sbp, favicons just make things difficult to comprehend, as instead of your expected icon for a url, you get some weird thing that makes no sense at all...
14:49:34 <sbp> nope. can you think of a better name than Accept-Metdata then
14:49:38 <sbp> ...?
14:50:09 <sbp> JibberJim: the logo for the site doesn't make sense next to a URI for a site page?
14:50:21 <sbp> that's a very novel opinion
14:51:15 <sbp> if you have, for example, twenty tabs open, the titles displayed on each of the tabs may consist of only a single letter
14:51:25 <sbp> so it's rather difficult to be able to pick out just one single tab
14:51:38 <sbp> whereas if you only have one BBC News tab open, for example, and you remember the logo, it's easy
14:51:48 <JibberJim> no, because the logo makes no sense
14:51:52 <JibberJim> it's tiny, it's odd.
14:51:54 <sbp> right now, I have a Firefox with fifteen tabs open
14:52:04 <sbp> and I can immediately spot the two Bartleby windows that I need to close
14:52:21 <sbp> even though the logo is some weird kinda exclamation mark thing that, as you say, doesn't make sense
14:52:41 <sbp> I still know that it means "Bartleby" because I have this thing that most humans are endowed with called... er...
14:52:42 <deltab> logos don't have to make sense
14:52:44 <sbp> hmm
14:52:47 <sbp> oh, memory
14:52:58 <JibberJim> so your problems are with tabs...
14:53:04 <sbp> same with bookmakrs
14:53:10 <sbp> bookmakers? bookmarks
14:53:23 <crschmidt> I have blue-on-white W (wordpress) blue pencil (livejournal) Blue on white G (Google) hacker logo (hackcraft)
14:53:30 <sbp> and not just tabs: same in IE if you have N windows open
14:53:37 <crschmidt> White-on-red-circle C (news.com.com)
14:53:55 <sbp> I have a Gmail, few inamidst, lots of Google
14:54:03 <sbp> the lots of Google shows that there's still a bit of a problem
14:54:22 <sbp> but I dunno how you'd solve that in a 16x16 space
14:54:23 <crschmidt> and of course, the angled C/S (crschmidt.net, crschmidt.livejournal.com)
14:54:48 <sbp> wondering about shading the logo according to the depth you are on the site
14:54:52 <sbp> that'd be fairly neat
14:55:16 <sbp> not too helpful on a flattish site like mine though
14:55:39 <sbp> it's a bit too small a space to make a good compound out of it
14:55:41 <crschmidt> my highest depth is 3: /semweb/sources/sitemap/
14:55:48 <sbp> otherwise you could make it like the australian flag
14:57:03 <JibberJim> I hate favicons
14:57:11 <sbp> why?
14:57:11 <JibberJim> they're really annoying.
14:57:30 <sbp> doesn't your browser allow you to turn them off?
14:58:06 <sbp> deltab: what about Metadata-Accept:? too confusing?
14:58:23 <JibberJim> of I never see any
14:58:27 <JibberJim> they're still annoying though
14:58:38 <JibberJim> I do have to use other peoples machines occasionally.
14:58:41 <deltab> sbp: that could be okay
14:58:44 <JibberJim> and they eat all my bandwidth
14:58:52 <deltab> hmm, does anything implement Warning?
14:59:51 <sbp> I've never heard of it
15:00:18 <deltab> me neither, and I thought I'd read the HTTP/1.1 spec :-)
15:00:41 <sbp> perhaps it's a legacy thing left over from 0.9 or 1.0?
15:01:04 <deltab> no, I don't think so
15:01:56 <deltab> 112 Disconnected operation
15:01:56 <deltab> SHOULD be included if the cache is intentionally disconnected from
15:01:56 <deltab> the rest of the network for a period of time.
15:02:48 <sbp> there's a bit of further rumbling about it here:
15:02:49 <sbp> http://www.arctic.org/~dean/apache/standards/draft-ietf-http-warning-00.txt
15:02:49 <deltab> the possible warnings are mostly about caching and transformation
15:03:00 <sbp> yeah
15:03:37 <sbp> aha: "Stronghold uses the Warning header to expound on status code information. This is usually used by caching proxies." - http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/stronghold/Stronghold-3.0-Manual/admin-guide/appendixa.fm.html
15:03:45 <sbp> there's one implementation, at least
15:04:11 <sbp> it's a server
15:05:49 <deltab> anyway, is PEP any use?
15:05:56 <deltab> "PEP is designed to support dynamic extensibility of HTTP methods, headers, and status codes."
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15:07:16 <sbp> wow, that's old
15:08:01 <sbp> wasn't it superceded by RFC 2774?
15:09:47 <deltab> you can tell how long ago I last looked at this :-)
15:10:21 <sbp> yeah
15:10:31 <sbp> HTTP EXT isn't used all that much. people prefer X-* headers
15:11:37 <deltab> I was hoping that Metadata-Accept had already been invented and just neglected
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15:13:12 <sbp> I doubt it would've been invented well
15:13:28 <sbp> for example, I was thinking that the property value could be a URI resolved against some IANA base
15:13:36 <sbp> that way it'd be quite easily openly extensible
15:15:01 <deltab> hrm, tricky: people aren't going to wait for IANA to register things, if they even know IANA exists; and URIs are too bulky
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15:15:34 <sbp> yeah, mostly they'll just be made by consensus
15:15:46 <sbp> so perhaps the IANA could try to take on a descriptivist role for a change
15:15:56 <sbp> heh, I guess that's the flaw
15:16:08 <sbp> IANA + descriptivism = KABOOM
15:16:48 <deltab> hmm, I think centralized registries aren't as important today as they used to be
15:17:22 <sbp> people just fear the dreaded Collision
15:17:29 <sbp> how about com.example style?
15:17:39 <deltab> yeah
15:17:39 <sbp> is that compact enough?
15:17:43 <kpreid> * kpreid blinks
15:17:44 <kpreid> tangent:
15:18:18 <deltab> yes, and can be used in header names without much mangling
15:18:27 <kpreid> besides the Dreaded Collision, there's also the possibility of "Yes, we all agree that this is one thing, but <subtle point>?"
15:18:31 <deltab> in fact yesterday I saw it used for XML element names
15:18:46 <kpreid> if you have a registry you can more likely find something authoritative for it
15:18:49 <sbp> I think Sean McGrath once proposed it as an alternative for namespaces
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15:19:17 <kpreid> reverse-dns is nice for being simple and working
15:19:23 <kpreid> otoh it's wired to DNS
15:19:34 <sbp> so's the world
15:19:55 <sbp> (sadly)
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15:19:59 <kpreid> true...
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15:20:10 <kpreid> just for example, here's my situation:
15:20:14 <kpreid> i own no domain names
15:20:25 <sbp> a group with cloo need to force out ICANN
15:20:27 <kpreid> i do, however, own several URL sub-spaces
15:20:46 <kpreid> therefore I can make good URI identifiers but not good reverse-DNS identifiers
15:20:52 <chimezie> * chimezie kicks phenny
15:20:56 <sbp> this is why email addresses are allowed in tag: URIs
15:21:11 <kpreid> approaches i have taken:
15:21:12 <phenny> * phenny kicks chimezie harder
15:21:16 <sbp> but I think that subdomains are easy enough to get
15:21:20 <chimezie> * chimezie kicks Monty
15:21:20 <Monty> Aye.
15:21:23 <kpreid> * asking other people for dns space for namespacing purposes
15:21:31 <deltab> crschmidt has the top results for "mt-daap"
15:21:46 <kpreid> * "hey, it's highly unlikely that there will be a TLD namd 'kpreid'"
15:23:20 <deltab> crschmidt: maybe you should refer to "mt-daapd" and "mDNSResponder" :-)
15:24:18 <sbp> kpreid: perhaps I should let anyone use com.inamidst.mbox.$(echo -n their@email.address | sha1sum)... not compact, though
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15:24:38 <kpreid> sbp: hah
15:24:50 <deltab> irc.freenode.kpreid
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15:25:10 <sbp> ooh. but it'd be net.freenode.irc.kpreid
15:25:13 <kpreid> sbp: how about com.inamidst.mbox.SEP.address.email.SEP.their, in the style of MIME multipart
15:25:42 <sbp> hmm
15:25:54 <sbp> you could drop the first sep
15:26:05 <kpreid> eh? can't
15:26:11 <sbp> yes you can!
15:26:11 <kpreid> have to know what it is
15:26:18 <sbp> hmm?
15:26:20 <kpreid> otherwise the guy from SEP.com gets in trouble
15:26:25 <deltab> sbp: I think kpreid means the first use identifies the second
15:26:26 <sbp> oh, I see
15:26:29 <sbp> yeah, sorry
15:26:51 <sbp> hmm. I guess that'd be fine. not much more compact though, is it?
15:27:06 <kpreid> more readable, though
15:27:10 <deltab> no, and you'd have to mangle e-mail addresses
15:27:34 <deltab> and have you seen some of the things that appear in e-mail addresses?
15:27:43 <kpreid> there is that
15:28:00 <sbp> yeah. sha1sum is pretty good in its own NORMALIZE THE PLANET way
15:28:21 <kpreid> ha
15:28:50 <kpreid> and if you try to reverse and dotandSEPify addresses like I proposed, what do you do when you get foo.bar@baz.com?
15:28:51 <sbp> I could allow truncated base32 encoded sha1sum if someone really wants major compactness
15:28:56 <uche> <sbp> I think Sean McGrath once proposed it as an alternative for namespaces
15:29:08 <uche> I *seriously* doubt that, unless he was joking
15:29:29 <sbp> it might have not been him, but I'm pretty sure that some Big XML Figure did in no jest
15:30:30 <uche> Lots of kooks among XML figures
15:30:37 <uche> McGrath is generally not one of them, tho
15:31:46 <deltab> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2005/04/13/namespace-uris.html
15:32:14 <deltab> "While namespace URIs may be guaranteed to be unique, they are also guaranteed to be impossible to remember."
15:32:31 <kpreid> that's not true!
15:32:38 <kpreid> i have memorized ONE namespace URI!
15:32:45 <deltab> hehe
15:32:59 <kpreid> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
15:33:21 <kpreid> (once upon a time I probably knew RDF and RDFS too)
15:33:27 <sbp> wow, recent
15:34:46 <crschmidt> I know FOAF
15:34:57 <crschmidt> everything else, I use julie
15:35:16 <uche> Mike Day isn't usually a kook
15:35:19 <crschmidt> oh, and wot, too, cause it's almost exactly the same as FOAF
15:35:23 <uche> although he does come up with some odd ideas
15:35:37 <uche> Worth poiinting out that he kind of threw out org.w3.xsl.transform as an aside
15:35:41 <sbp> lisppaste2: url?
15:35:41 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
15:35:55 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "DNS ID Thing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/8813
15:35:58 <uche> I assume if someone (me?) clipped his ear, he'd rethink :-)
15:36:26 <sbp> com.inamidst.mbox.et7jalakqf4zlg2o isn't so bad
15:36:32 <sbp> and whaddya want for free?!
15:36:55 <sbp> it wasn't the Day article that I was remembering--too recent--but it may have been him saying a similar thing previously
15:37:46 <uche> I was more worried about Mike Day's argument re: CSS versus XSL:FO
15:38:09 <uche> But Norm Walsh already made the response I would have
15:38:36 <uche> Mike does like to shake things up, and that's cool
15:38:46 <uche> s'long as he doesn't go too far
15:40:49 <sbp> do you have any opinion on TAG issue siteData-36, uche?
15:40:59 <sbp> (the context of this discussion, originally)
15:41:39 <uche> I have to look...
15:41:44 <uche> .g TAG siteData-36
15:41:46 <phenny> ...
15:41:51 <sbp> heh
15:42:03 <sbp> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues#siteData-36
15:42:11 <sbp> she's having Problems at the moment
15:42:17 <uche> k. reading...
15:42:32 <sbp> we were talking about autodiscovery of Google Sitemaps before then
15:43:28 <uche> sounds like much ado about nowt
15:43:47 <sbp> it's slowly but surely becoming less and less of a nowt
15:44:06 <uche> I think that convention is part of "ownership"
15:44:14 <uche> One of those things is not like the others...
15:44:31 <uche> "w3c/p3p" is being pushed by a standards body, and I think that's encroachment
15:44:46 <uche> I guess robots.txt as well
15:45:03 <uche> I'd draw the line that all such standard have to allow a way to "reroute" the space
15:45:41 <sbp> in the robots.txt days, I don't think it would've been implemented had a rerouting system been in place
15:45:42 <jetscreamer> jetscreamer (~jetscream@adsl-64-219-216-41.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) has joined #swhack
15:46:07 <uche> sure, but that's not unusual
15:46:07 <sbp> but now that it's a different story (we're all having to deal with XML formats to start with), why not?
15:46:27 <uche> You start with a convenient convention, pause to appreciate the effects, and then standardize (or adjust the standards)
15:46:50 <uche> I guess my point is that I can't get pasionnate about it as a problem
15:47:00 <uche> Not that I have a problem with others tackling it
15:47:06 <sbp> that's fair enough
15:47:15 <uche> And if they come up with something, what the hell, I'll probably conform
15:47:23 <Ash> hi sbp
15:47:29 <Ash> like that video clip?
15:47:47 <sbp> right, which is what I was asking: what kind of solutions will make you "probably" conform?
15:47:53 <sbp> Ash: heh, hi there. yeah, thanks for that
15:47:59 <sbp> the vague phenny message was a response to it
15:48:03 <Ash> yeah I figured
15:48:07 <Ash> ehehe
15:48:13 <Ash> the family guy rules
15:48:21 <deltab> not this one, though? <phenny> ...
15:48:29 <Ash> best show evar
15:48:33 <sbp> not that one, no. though if you look carefully between the dots...
15:48:41 <deltab> omg
15:48:43 <sbp> I don't watch it much/often/ever
15:48:54 <deltab> it's full of null strings!
15:48:57 <Ash> i am eating a brownie for breakfast and drinking a soda
15:49:00 <Ash> so bad
15:49:03 <sbp> deltab: count 'em!
15:49:13 <jetscreamer> jetscreamer has quit (Client Quit)
15:49:22 <sbp> mmm... brownies for breakfast
15:51:37 <Ash> yes
15:51:39 <Ash> it is awesome
15:51:52 <chimezie> chimezie has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:52:20 <JibberJim> Ash, stop eating young girls for breakfast!
15:52:24 <JibberJim> or indeed any other meals
15:52:31 <JibberJim> they should be allowed to grow up!
15:53:11 <sbp> hehe
15:53:38 <deltab> you're only meant to eat the cookies
15:54:37 <Ash> oh oops
15:54:46 <Ash> but JJ, they're sooo tasty
15:55:00 <JibberJim> hmm...
16:00:45 <sbp> okay, encoding for the multipart thing
16:01:10 <sbp> I'm thinking --HH for any borken characters
16:01:20 <sbp> so... -- itself will have to be...
16:01:24 <sbp> .pc -
16:01:26 <phenny> 002D: HYPHEN-MINUS (-)
16:01:33 <sbp> --2D--2D
16:01:42 <sbp> well, hyphen by itself is fine
16:01:45 <sbp> so just ---2D
16:02:49 <sbp> .pc +
16:02:52 <phenny> 002B: PLUS SIGN (+)
16:03:19 <sbp> so first+second@example.org would become com.inamidst.mbox.at.org.example.at.first--2Bsecond
16:22:41 <Ash> .pc --
16:22:43 <phenny> 002D: HYPHEN-MINUS (-)
16:22:46 <phenny> 002D: HYPHEN-MINUS (-)
16:32:30 <kpreid> .pc .
16:32:32 <phenny> 002E: FULL STOP (.)
16:33:46 <kpreid> com.inamidst.mbox.org.-FULL0STOP.example.-COMMERCIAL0AT.second.-PLUS0SIGN.first
16:33:50 <kpreid> * kpreid ducks
16:35:26 <Ash> heh
16:35:32 <Ash> (.)(.)
16:36:04 <kpreid> (i'm assuming that the repertoire of unicode character names is ' ' '-' 'A'-'Z'
16:36:05 <kpreid> )
16:39:04 <deltab> no, there can be digits too
16:42:06 <deltab> {' ': 49381, '-': 2977, '1': 579, '0': 342, '3': 380, '2': 1050, '5': 382, '4': 374, '7': 350, '6': 346, '9': 721, '8': 598, 'A': 43101, 'C': 15623, 'B': 10500, 'E': 36066, 'D': 10076, 'G': 9634, 'F': 5397, 'I': 34805, 'H': 12989, 'K': 5109, 'J': 1880, 'M': 12513, 'L': 33891, 'O': 18796, 'N': 16915, 'Q': 824, 'P': 8428, 'S': 16170, 'R': 24245, 'U': 7443, 'T': 33766, 'W': 5330, 'V': 2499, 'Y': 8282, 'X': 1264, 'Z': 1133}
16:42:22 <kpreid> hm
16:42:48 <kpreid> then replace the 0s in what I wrote with some character allowed in DNS but not Unicode-names
16:43:13 <deltab> the only such character is .
16:45:00 <sbp> which makes it ambiguous
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17:42:00 <Monty> hi cskateru1
17:43:52 <cskateru1> cskateru1 is now known as cskaterun
18:01:15 <nsh> nsh (tourful@nsh.wikipedia) has joined #swhack
18:01:15 <Monty> it's nsh!
18:01:52 <nsh> we're Monty!
18:01:54 <Monty> techno attacks Lasagne, apparently.
18:01:58 <xover> .g punycode
18:01:59 <phenny> exceptions.IOError: [Errno socket error] (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')
18:02:38 <nsh> "Google hacked - Start rioting" -NY Times
18:04:44 <mattis__> mattis__ has quit (Connection timed out)
18:05:34 <mattis__> mattis__ (~mattis@p54BD6DF0.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #swhack
18:12:56 <AaronSw> AaronSw (~AaronSw@gork.Stanford.EDU) has joined #swhack
18:16:50 <nsh> Monty, what happens when you make an axis curvy?
18:16:51 <Monty> heheheh
18:17:03 <nsh> Monty, t'was no joke!
18:17:04 <Monty> everyones idle
18:18:34 <nsh> Monty, dew to what, you think?
18:18:35 <Monty> ..."
18:18:47 <nsh> Monty, quiet tonight, aren't we...
18:18:49 <Monty> I reckon you lick second knots.
18:20:03 <cskaterun> cskaterun has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:20:16 <libby> libby has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:20:33 <nsh> Monty, touche
18:20:35 <Monty> k, i live in XML defined UI.
18:22:33 <nsh> one sec...
18:25:42 <bancus> monty: there is only XUL?
18:25:47 <Monty> google's script killing or put in it to files which seemed to hatch, only be executed on here
18:31:48 <sbp> phenny: tell kpreid http://inamidst.com/svc/dnsid
18:31:51 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on for you when kpreid is around.
18:33:15 <sbp> ah, Google OK'd my sitemap
18:33:42 <sbp> I ran it through crschmidt's thingy beforehand anyway, and it seemed okay
18:34:01 <sbp> trouble is, there's no real "feedback" with this thing
18:34:11 <sbp> you might notice a change in the search results, or you might not
18:34:22 <sbp> would be nicer if they gave you crawling stats or something
18:37:35 <Ash> hi sbp
18:38:04 <sbp> hey Ash
18:38:27 <sbp> AaronSw, around?
18:38:28 <sbp> [19:35] <bjoern_> .val http://www.w3.org/TR/sXBL/
18:38:28 <sbp> [19:35] <phenny> exceptions.IOError: [Errno socket error] (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')
18:38:31 <Ash> how are you enduring your freedom
18:38:47 <sbp> frequent Achewood
18:38:55 <Ash> heehe
18:39:52 <sbp> just doing digital tidying up, really. how about you?
18:40:14 <Ash> 'it has nothing to do with what he eats, that's not why he's chunky'
18:40:43 <sbp> where's that from?
18:40:44 <Ash> i'm waiting in the drive-up queue at the power co
18:40:55 <Ash> forgot to pay the bill earlier
18:41:00 <sbp> aha
18:41:23 <sbp> there's actually a queue to drive-up?
18:41:23 <Ash> someone in line talking on her cell
18:41:33 <sbp> ah, pfft
18:41:52 <Ash> yeah, a huge one
18:41:58 <sbp> funny, we have hardly any drive-through services over here
18:42:06 <Ash> 3 cars wide, 10 or 12 cars long
18:42:07 <sbp> the concept is just unheard of. not so much of a car culture
18:42:15 <Ash> suckaz
18:42:30 <Ash> yeah. vegas is totally a car town
18:42:41 <Ash> it stinks
18:43:35 <sbp> is it a recent thing, or has it been going for decades?
18:43:45 <Ash> decades
18:44:00 <Ash> town is all spread out
18:44:07 <Ash> i am 12 miles from the strip
18:44:34 <sbp> ah. whereas here you'd pass through like fifty towns in that space :-)
18:45:00 <Ash> yep
18:45:10 <Ash> i need to move to the uk
18:45:13 <Ash> argh
18:45:51 <sbp> make sure you pick a nice part
18:46:00 <Ash> yes
18:46:12 <Ash> tell me where to go
18:46:16 <Ash> heheheh
18:46:37 <Ash> my line is faster than the others
18:46:39 <Ash> rad
18:47:18 <sbp> I guess the eternal problem is being near work but not being near a Crap Area
18:48:44 <sbp> but since there's more variety in a small area, commutes can be quite small even if you've got the best of both worlds
18:49:26 <sbp> so... I'd say, go for a job in a nucleated town
18:49:48 <Ash> west staines
18:49:50 <sbp> try to avoid the big cities (living costs are higher there anyway; London's crazy), and conurbations
18:49:59 <sbp> ehheh. too much Ali G for you
18:51:37 <sbp> hmm. I wonder if you get £1000 extra loan if you go to university in London now, or if it's even higher
18:52:18 <Ash> brb
18:52:51 <phenny> phenny has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:53:05 <phenny> phenny (sbp@66.9.179.68) has joined #swhack
18:53:17 <crschmidt> .g test
18:53:27 <phenny> test: http://www.ets.org/toefl/
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19:14:36 <AaronSw> i am now taking suggestions on apartments
19:14:54 <AaronSw> while consigning myself to CERTAIN DOOM
19:16:27 <AaronSw> actually, a homeless startup would be a nice twist on the whole "garage" thing
19:16:40 <AaronSw> we could sleep outside a coffee shop and work inside during the day
19:16:53 <sbp> that is way too post-modern
19:17:00 <sbp> the company would explode if you did that
19:17:09 <sbp> Season Finale: suckdom, incidentally
19:18:03 <AaronSw> the article sucks?
19:18:14 <sbp> the nerve of $authority_figure
19:18:20 <AaronSw> oh
19:18:29 <sbp> but yes, you still didn't correct "Fued"
19:18:33 <AaronSw> yes i did
19:18:44 <AaronSw> oops, i forgot to type make
19:18:50 <AaronSw> downside of this blogging software
19:19:03 <AaronSw> that could probably be remedied if i wanted
19:19:13 <sbp> have a daemon monitor the files?
19:19:13 <AaronSw> with one of those kautolistenergidget
19:19:23 <AaronSw> well, linux has a push system now, doesn't it?
19:19:29 <sbp> it does?
19:20:02 <AaronSw> maybe just os x?
19:20:11 <AaronSw> sigh, everything available now is for july+august
19:20:17 <AaronSw> i suppose that makes sense
19:20:36 <AaronSw> wow, here's a place that comes with a G4
19:22:28 <Ash> AaronSw: you're thinking of fam on linux
19:22:46 <Ash> but it's kqueues on osx and freebsd
19:22:55 <Ash> (and works better than fam, for the most part)
19:23:57 <AaronSw> ah, thanks
19:24:15 <AaronSw> has anyone written a general make-fam thing?
19:24:23 <AaronSw> auto-compiles in background?
19:25:06 <sbp> argh
19:25:07 <sbp> 403 http://oss.sgi.com/projects/fam/download/fam-latest.tar.gz
19:25:18 <crschmidt> Ash: isn't inotify the better, in-kernel version of fam?
19:25:34 <sbp> ah, ftp://oss.sgi.com/projects/fam/download/fam-2.6.10.tar.gz
19:26:01 <Ash> crschmidt: quite possibly. i have little knowledge of the linux side of that stuff
19:29:14 <AaronSw> alternatives:
19:29:29 <AaronSw> * stay with family for june [distracting, miss PG dinners]
19:29:50 <AaronSw> * stay with friends in Cambridge for june [who?]
19:30:06 <AaronSw> * take out-of-the-way apt
19:30:16 <AaronSw> * find 1br apt for june
19:30:47 <sbp> they look like they're in reverse-order of adequacy
19:31:21 <AaronSw> yeah
19:32:19 <AaronSw> oh: * simon and i split a 1br
19:34:42 <AaronSw> man, everythings down this afternoon
19:34:45 <AaronSw> it must be maintenance day
19:37:47 <AaronSw> Is it just me or does OK Go sound like The Dandy Warhols?
19:43:47 <sbp> hmm
19:43:48 <sbp> configure: WARNING: rpcsvc/mount.h: present but cannot be compiled
19:43:48 <sbp> configure: WARNING: rpcsvc/mount.h: check for missing prerequisite headers?
19:43:52 <sbp> configure: WARNING: rpcsvc/mount.h: proceeding with the preprocessor's result
19:43:52 <sbp> configure: WARNING: ## ------------------------------------ ##
19:43:57 <sbp> configure: WARNING: ## Report this to bug-autoconf@gnu.org. ##
19:43:57 <sbp> configure: WARNING: ## ------------------------------------ ##
19:44:34 <cskaterun> cskaterun has quit (Remote closed the connection)
19:47:17 <Ash> boog
19:48:30 <sbp> hmm
19:48:35 <sbp> okay, fam won't build
19:48:39 <Ash> fame
19:48:45 <sbp> configure.ac:22: error: possibly undefined macro: AC_PROG_LIBTOOL
19:48:45 <sbp> If this token and others are legitimate, please use m4_pattern_allow.
19:48:45 <sbp> See the Autoconf documentation.
19:48:45 <sbp> make: *** [configure] Error 1
19:48:46 <bancus> try gamin
19:49:00 <bancus> fam is dispreferred now, afaik
19:49:03 <sbp> bancus: thanks
19:49:08 <bancus> and gamin provides an identical interface
19:49:17 <sbp> hey, by Daniel Veillard. neat
19:49:25 <bancus> (ie, it also provides a libfam)
19:49:30 <bancus> it also doesn't need portmap
19:49:36 <bancus> which can close some potential security issues
19:55:42 <sbp> dependencies, dependencies...
19:58:32 <sbp> errors, errors...
19:58:42 <sbp> gam_data.c:474: error: `PTHREAD_MUTEX_RECURSIVE_NP' undeclared (first use in this function)
20:00:19 <sbp> hmm. #define _GNU_SOURCE didn't help
20:04:54 <sbp> * sbp finds a fix in http://archive.neotonic.com/archive/clanlib-devel/msg/5925
20:05:42 <sbp> more fun: libtool: link: cannot find the library `/usr/lib/libintl.la'
20:06:17 <sbp> ah, in gettext-0.14.1-1
20:09:20 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "gamin-0.1.0 patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/8820
20:09:22 <xover> I once had an app absolutely kill a box because they were polling the disks waaay too frequently. On an SGI Irix box, and an Irix-only app, with FAM already running.
20:09:30 <sbp> raw: http://paste.lisp.org/display/8820/raw
20:10:16 <xover> And the box in question was was an Origin 2000 (Quad-CPU *beast* of a box).
20:10:55 <ows> ows (~666@bl5-43-174.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #swhack
20:11:04 <xover> Got really good distributed.net RC5-64 performance though... :-)
20:11:08 <sbp> heh
20:12:38 <ows> hi folks
20:13:33 <uche> hi
20:13:34 <Anical> privet, uche
20:14:53 <sbp> well it installed, but none of the tests work
20:14:58 <sbp> so not entirely successful
20:16:20 <xover> Your kernel has inotify enabled?
20:17:14 <sbp> cygwin
20:17:51 <xover> And you expected something that depends on a linux kernel subsystem to just work?
20:17:54 <sbp> <xover> My sympathies.
20:18:14 <sbp> not just work. maybe eventually work?
20:18:37 <sbp> maybe I'll install ubuntu
20:18:53 <xover> Get Fedora.
20:19:55 <sbp> why?
20:20:08 <sbp> only you, Morbus, and patfm use it
20:20:20 <xover> QED
20:20:26 <sbp> heh, heh
20:20:53 <sbp> and I suppose the ", Morbus, and patfm" was superfluous? :-)
20:21:11 <xover> I didn't say that.
20:21:36 <sbp> in any case, what're the actual advantages?
20:22:06 <xover> Yes, that was my question, and I still haven't found anything resembling an answer.
20:22:13 <xover> As regards Ubuntu, that is.
20:22:27 <Ash> ubuntu is great.
20:22:55 <bancus> * bancus uses ubuntu
20:22:55 <Ash> the obvious advantage is that it is based on debian
20:23:09 <bancus> I had trouble with fedora
20:23:19 <bancus> no where near the breadth of packages that ubuntu has available
20:23:25 <xover> And it's advantage over Debian (not that that is necessarily a good thing) is?
20:23:27 <bancus> and one of the 3rd party repos recommended to me broke my shit
20:23:34 <bancus> more recent
20:23:48 <bancus> You get newer software faster.
20:23:49 <Ash> xover: it is designed to be used as a workstation, so you get all sorts of niceities from the start
20:23:57 <Ash> instead of having to install 5 billion things like you do with debian
20:24:01 <bancus> and some desktop polish
20:24:03 <Ash> etc
20:24:16 <Ash> but yeah, polished desktop install is the biggest advantage over standard debian (and over fedora, imo)
20:24:17 <bancus> 5 billion things?
20:24:29 <Ash> bancus: on regular debian, to get the same kind of nice polish as with ubuntu
20:24:32 <Ash> anyway, bbiaf
20:24:35 <bancus> debian has a gnome virtual package
20:24:35 <xover> Hmm. So simply Debian with a somewhat saner release policy?
20:24:44 <sbp> it's very sharp
20:24:45 <bancus> debian has a slower release policy
20:24:48 <sbp> it's like a tuned sid
20:24:55 <bancus> it targets something like 11 archetectures
20:24:59 <Ash> xover: saner release policy, better qa, better default install
20:25:15 <bancus> they simply can't release that quickly
20:25:19 <bancus> nor get new software in as fast
20:25:28 <bancus> ubuntu only supports like x86 and x86-54
20:25:31 <bancus> maybe ppc
20:25:46 <bancus> so they don't have to wait for the new version of X to work on sparc or mips or something to use it
20:26:01 <xover> In other words, they differentiate themselves only in terms of divergence from Debian proper.
20:26:09 <bancus> pretty much
20:26:16 <bancus> it's a refined desktop debian
20:26:29 <bancus> all the power of debian, with more current and polished desktop software
20:27:15 <bancus> fedora is possibly more polished
20:27:30 <bancus> but it's missing a whole shitload of packages, from a debian-users point of view
20:27:59 <xover> More to the point, also from a Windows user's point of view.
20:28:04 <bjoern_> bjoern_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:29:28 <xover> <http://www.fedora.redhat.com/about/objectives.html>
20:29:42 <xover> Mark well that final point on the page.
20:31:28 <bancus> Mark well that debian has considerably more maintainers than fedora.
20:31:55 <bancus> And that sometimes the usable software is missing some crucial feature.
20:32:04 <bancus> (Actually, much more than sometimes.)
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21:41:33 <sbp> * sbp finds some old miscoranda comments, restores them
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22:06:39 <kpreid> * kpreid blinks
22:06:42 <phenny> kpreid: 18:31Z <sbp> tell kpreid http://inamidst.com/svc/dnsid
22:10:30 <kpreid> sbp: bug: http://inamidst.com/svc/dnsid/x@example.net. -> com.inamidst.mbox.at..net.example.at.x
22:13:16 <bancus> .w hike
22:13:17 <phenny> hike 1. a long walk usually for exercise or pleasure
22:13:19 <phenny> hike 2. an increase in cost; "they asked for a 10% rise in rates"
22:13:23 <phenny> hike 3. the amount a salary is increased; "he got a 3% raise"; "he got a wage hike" [...]
22:13:30 <Ash> .w hork
22:13:32 <phenny> I couldn't find hork in WordNet.
22:13:39 <Ash> WordNet sucks then, phenny!
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22:16:12 <Monty> But what does simonbc have to do with the price of fish?
22:16:14 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
22:16:15 <Monty> now, tho
22:28:27 <sbp> kpreid: thanks. I meant to add a little address validator to it
22:28:45 <kpreid> you might also want to check the dnsid/ and dnsid/@ cases
22:29:19 <kpreid> "example.net." is a perfectly ok domain name, you just need to normalize it
22:29:42 <kpreid> also don't forget to not exclude the guy with the <one letter>@<country TLD> address
22:29:47 <kpreid> (I forget the specifics)
22:31:59 <sbp> hmm: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~cache/email/
22:33:33 <sbp> I think I'll only allow a subset; it'll be easier
22:33:43 <deltab> kpreid: dk?
22:33:44 <kpreid> hey look! genuine *regular* expressions!
22:33:47 <sbp> I'll put up a message saying to email me if a more relaxed form is needed
22:33:53 <kpreid> deltab: I don't remember
22:49:41 <sbp> kpreid: okay, fixed
22:49:46 <sbp> it's fairly loose, let's say
22:49:56 <sbp> see source for the gory details
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23:23:20 <Monty> bah, it's chimezie again
23:23:45 <kpreid> bah, it's Monty greeting again
23:23:48 <Monty> I reckon wasps + law-court = README?
23:24:17 <kpreid> Monty, most READMEs' authors don't want anything to do with either wasps or law-courts.
23:24:21 <Monty> foetal round nachos opens tall painful Microsoft Word.
23:25:11 <kpreid> I have nothing to say on that subject.
23:25:36 <deltab> Monty: wasps or lawyers: which is worse?
23:25:40 <Monty> will look for XML defined by them that has become burninated
23:26:13 <kpreid> Wow, that's so...
23:26:15 <schepers_> schepers_ is now known as schepers
23:26:17 <kpreid> *coherent*
23:26:21 <deltab> yeah
23:26:26 <chimezie> * chimezie beats Monty down
23:26:26 <Monty> [19:35] <phenny> ... especially after that, I didn't help everyone search term for ratings
23:26:44 <deltab> it's like Monty actually knows about Microsoft Word's XML
23:26:45 <kpreid> kpreid has changed the topic to: Monty will look for XML defined by them that has become burninated
23:26:46 <Monty> craves Atlantic ancient C-Howells!!!
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23:38:28 <uche> I use Fedora as well
23:38:44 <uche> I'm not sure how one would get the impression that not many people do
23:39:28 <deltab> so do I
23:39:40 <uche> Ubuntu might be better than Debian was when I tried it, but Debian put me off badly back then, and I'm reluctant to try again
23:39:43 <deltab> Fedora Core 3, that is
23:42:30 <uche> big "it ain't broke, don't fix it" matter, too
23:42:56 <uche> Fedora Core has always worked well for me, and Gentoo, Mandrake and Debian have often not done so
23:43:23 <crschmidt> Gentoo sucks
23:43:24 <uche> Not easy to marshal the time to try a new distro when your works fine
23:43:41 <crschmidt> Ubuntu has worked perfectly for me so far -- debian sarge, as well
23:43:42 <chimezie> I have little problems with Gentoo
23:43:43 <uche> And I rarely run into packages that I can't get for Fedora, with my repo setup
23:43:45 <chimezie> i use it for my servers
23:43:55 <chimezie> package management is painless
23:44:33 <uche> That's strong plug considering your jinx, chime :-)
23:44:42 <uche> "a strong plug
23:44:49 <chimezie> yeah but i've had no problems with 2005.0
23:44:56 <chimezie> i did with the previous renditions of 2004
23:45:01 <uche> I'm definitely glad to hear that
23:45:11 <uche> It was painful to watch you struggle with all that
23:45:28 <crschmidt> I spent 2 weeks of all my free time resolving a dependancy conflict with Gentoo
23:45:40 <uche> It makes sense for AMD-64 because of how it builds packages to your own machine
23:45:41 <crschmidt> tried to emerge world at one point, and Gentoo was convinced that I had a 2.6 and 2.4 kernel
23:46:04 <crschmidt> so, it wanted the 2.6 mod utils and the 2.4 mod utils, which are blockers
23:46:19 <chimezie> yeah that was mostly the hurdle I had with that machine
23:46:20 <uche> It was watching your experience that made me shy away from buying 64-bit, yet
23:46:43 <uche> Sounds like the landscape is better now
23:48:22 <chimezie> any suggestions for a good python 'cookbook'?
23:49:14 <chimezie> .gc python cookbook
23:49:17 <phenny> python cookbook: 177,000
23:49:26 <chimezie> .g python cookbook
23:49:28 <phenny> python cookbook: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Python/Cookbook/
23:49:57 <uche> yeah, that's it
23:50:02 <uche> I even have a few entries :-)
23:50:17 <uche> though now that I blog I contribute there less
23:50:31 <uche> e.g. my XML dirlisting would have been in Python cookbook before
23:58:39 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "bash robots.txt parser (untested)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/8821