Swhack! 22 March 2006
00:00:09 <sbp> it's currently read three and a half million lines
00:00:09 <crschmidt> couldn't wc -l do that?
00:00:18 <crschmidt> oh, it's a mysql dump or something, right?
00:00:21 <sbp> yes, but I want to do operations on it in Python
00:00:25 <sbp> it's a bzip2'd xml file
00:00:26 <nsh> what you trying to do, sbp?
00:00:42 <sbp> the first thing I want to do is compile a wordlist from it
00:01:10 <Moira_> well, I'm off to bed I think
00:01:12 <Moira_> more or less
00:01:15 <sbp> 'night Moira
00:01:19 <sbp> 6.5M
00:01:22 <Moira_> night!
00:01:43 <Moira_> just managed to program some custom functions in excel, using vba which actually work (unusual for me)
00:01:51 <sbp> well done
00:02:03 <Moira_> lol - maths isn't my forte :)
00:02:08 <Moira_> usually
00:02:20 <sbp> right, skipped a generation as you say? :-)
00:02:20 <Moira_> laters
00:02:24 <sbp> c'ya
00:02:25 <Moira_> totally
00:02:30 <Moira_> Louise got it from my dad I think
00:02:32 <sbp> 10M
00:03:39 <sbp> hmm. I have a 5.5 MB file from PG which has 124K lines in it
00:03:41 <sbp> that's...
00:03:46 <sbp> .calc 124000 / 5.5
00:03:49 <phenny> 124 000 / 5.5 = 22 545.4545
00:04:03 <sbp> lines per megabyte, and Wikipedia is said to be 27GB, that's 27,000MB, inflated
00:04:12 <sbp> so that's...
00:04:19 <sbp> .calc 27000 * 22545
00:04:21 <phenny> 27 000 * 22 545 = 608 715 000
00:04:27 <sbp> expected lines to parse, and I'm at...
00:04:36 <sbp> 16,500,000
00:04:46 *** bear_mtg is now known as bear
00:04:48 <sbp> not too bad
00:04:59 <sbp> .calc 608715000 / 16500000
00:05:02 <phenny> 608 715 000 / 16 500 000 = 36.8918182
00:05:08 <sbp> .calc 100 / 36.8918182
00:05:11 <phenny> 100 / 36.8918182 = 2.71062813
00:06:51 <sbp> still, it's going to be running for hours just parsing out words
00:07:51 <crschmidt> I guess you decided not to do this on bia?
00:08:22 <sbp> welp, I decided to download it locally first to run some tests like this on it
00:08:29 <crschmidt> ah
00:08:46 <sbp> then I can see how feasible it'll be to do cool things with it
00:09:07 <crschmidt> Very much not ;)
00:09:08 <sbp> though frankly it looks like it's going to take up too much crap even to run a nice static wikipedia mirror
00:09:12 <sbp> yeah
00:11:04 *** Kurt` is now known as nsh
00:11:10 *** nsh is now known as Kurt`
00:11:32 redmonk (n=steve@ip68-104-189-211.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack
00:16:15 redmonk has quit (Client Quit)
00:19:05 <mumbles> PLEASE REMEMBER TO COMPLETELY
00:19:05 <mumbles> REMOVE THE INSTALLATION DIRECTORY
00:20:13 <nsh> twe, did you get that?
00:20:29 <twe> nsh: S arse is on irc whothefuck these people i'm talking to you that this isn't what i get.
00:20:50 <nsh> easy now, twe
00:21:00 <twe> Now i get twe to constantly say twe.
00:21:26 <H0gan> Tweedle?
00:21:35 <twe> H0gan: Mao zedong's fighting-fit nails wants hairdryer's addressing jism.
00:21:35 <nsh> twe, you're rather antisocial for a conversational bot
00:21:36 <H0gan> Ah twe it is.
00:21:50 <twe> nsh: Rather a large number of the origins of the bot, he responded to anything with his t-shirt.
00:21:54 <twe> It is a twe.
00:22:07 <nsh> twe, hardcore
00:22:13 <twe> nsh: Hardcore: http://disobey.com/gallery/v/wallpapers/09f6ef8328.jpg.html.
00:22:51 <nsh> twe, nice url
00:23:02 <twe> nsh: Er, correct, three channels have my custom style, some have the url.
00:23:16 <nsh> twe, what channels?
00:23:49 <twe> nsh: Unfo: error: "twe" is not a font of them, way in the channels worked (for the first eight amendments; they were obviously explicit in the bar and stayed in the channels worked (for the first step--all the menu bars and startup messages and the changes in rulings about a dozen symbols for footnote markers.
00:24:33 <nsh> twe, that's exactly what i was thinking
00:24:39 <twe> nsh: I was thinking.
00:25:07 <nsh> twe, congratulations
00:25:15 <twe> nsh: No results for "morphogenic".
00:25:25 <nsh> twe, don't push it
00:25:30 <mumbles> twe - Intell are shit
00:25:34 <nsh> twe, plausable deniability
00:25:36 <twe> nsh: Said it, i believe it, that settles it.
00:25:37 <mumbles> and yes i know its a bot
00:25:50 <twe> mumbles: I was talking to are in the day's logs, you can do so much shit on my parents 25000 credit limit on that?
00:26:04 * nsh smiles
00:26:16 <mumbles> :p
00:26:18 <twe> nsh: Probably what it sounds like there's a big problem here which is that the caller is a girl while she's playing. That's tacky. Nowadays, you gotta ask first. Say [something] like, "honey, while you're fondling that joystick, let me [fiddle with] your [ta-tas]. Then we can swap places.
00:26:20 <mumbles> almost made sense :p
00:26:47 * nsh wonders if that will fit in the topic
00:27:39 <mumbles> hahahah
00:27:46 <mumbles> connected to next doors neibors wireless
00:28:04 <H0gan> heh
00:28:05 <nsh> twe, use [off] when confessing to crime
00:28:30 <twe> nsh: When i was to just that one i have a vocabulary of 377 words, 18 reminders pending, 51 outstanding welcome messages, seen 10187 different nicks and i were chatting about all of it since you use to scan that oed?
00:28:54 <nsh> exactly, twe
00:29:01 <twe> Twe twe make twe feel sad.
00:29:03 H0gan has quit ("The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind")
00:29:15 <nsh> twe, you love the attention really
00:29:25 <twe> nsh: "Love you until the day you love.
00:29:34 <mumbles> twe what is love?
00:29:47 <twe> mumbles: "Love you until the day i die" (9,520), "love you until the day you love.
00:29:49 <bancus> baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me know more
00:30:08 <mumbles> twe love is "when a girl comes and kicks you in the balls"
00:30:15 <twe> mumbles: Earlier in the balls.
00:30:28 <nsh> twe, you'd make a great narator
00:30:28 <crschmidt> twe: she kicks you in the balls before she loves you?
00:30:37 <mumbles> twe earlier = kicked
00:30:39 <twe> nsh: ú Is kind of a great narator.
00:30:46 <twe> crschmidt: Not in the balls.
00:30:52 <twe> mumbles: We kicked him in the us then?
00:31:10 <nsh> twe, narator/character?!?
00:31:19 <twe> nsh: Where demands may be better without the last character.
00:31:23 *** bear is now known as bear_mtg
00:31:33 <nsh> twe, what kind of demands?
00:31:42 <twe> nsh: There is a kind of demands?
00:31:49 <nsh> twe, probably
00:31:58 <twe> nsh: Sorry. It probably wasn't worth it.
00:32:21 <nsh> twe, little is
00:32:32 <twe> nsh: Is the name of twe is the line is to say, correctly.
00:32:51 <nsh> .swhack morphogenic
00:33:15 <phenny> nsh: http://swhack.com/logs/2006-03-07#T20-15-15
00:34:46 <mumbles> so how advanced is the ai in twe
00:34:57 <twe> How is the thing that people have entered that your thoughts ?
00:35:35 <est> twe: the orbital mind control thing?
00:35:53 <twe> est: Ouch. How big is the thing that turned me away was the first thing i don't have control over the <html> element, so i look all those up.
00:36:55 <est> uh..im sorry the..thing..was too big
00:49:55 chimezie (n=chimezie@adsl-67-39-202-127.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack
00:49:55 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's chimezie!
00:51:01 * chimezie kicks Monty in the shins
00:51:01 <Monty> s/text/text me/
01:04:29 farh0rizon has parted #swhack ()
01:22:37 bjoern_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:31:10 <thelsdj> i'm still bitter because our smallest wiki contender got disqualified, we totally had that contest won
01:31:28 <thelsdj> i wonder if that code still exists
01:31:37 <thelsdj> was on my hard drive at one point i wonder if sbp saved a backup
01:32:43 <clsn> Why was it disQd?
01:33:24 <sbp> thelsdj: see http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/
01:33:31 <sbp> that's all that I have, sadly; I lost the PUT handler
01:33:48 <sbp> thankfully the actual wiki code was so small that I'd pasted it into various logs; the #swhack logs and the #svg logs
01:33:55 <sbp> so I was able to rescue it!
01:34:11 <sbp> do you have a website I can link your name to?
01:34:14 <thelsdj> i do have the put handler if you want it
01:34:20 <thelsdj> just found the old code
01:34:52 <est> what i got you got to get it PUT it in you
01:34:55 * sbp guesses upon http://www.ipwebdev.com/weblog/
01:35:28 <thelsdj> nah thats old
01:35:42 <thelsdj> blog.thelsdj.org will be new home once i actually put some content on there
01:35:47 <thelsdj> http://thelsdj.org/put.src.txt
01:36:22 <sbp> 199 chars... heh, heh. that was a major bit of work
01:36:58 <sbp> and we were totally within the rules. the whole idea of the contest was stupid
01:37:05 <sbp> the lines were clearly drawn, though, and we were inside them
01:37:10 <sbp> it bugs me too
01:37:15 <thelsdj> ya
01:37:20 <clsn> What the context under which it was thrown out?
01:37:26 <clsn> pretext, not context.
01:37:48 <thelsdj> supposedly it required extra stuff, and didn't fully conform to wiki principles
01:37:56 <thelsdj> namely not full backlink support
01:38:02 <clsn> Ah.
01:38:18 <thelsdj> but i swear those requirements were added later
01:45:03 * sbp changes it to blog.thelsdj.org
01:45:04 bjoern_ (n=bjoern@dslb-084-056-228-020.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
01:45:37 <sbp> PUT handler: awesome! thanks!
01:48:03 <sbp> we do have backlink support though, no?
01:48:18 <est> what is that?
01:48:19 <sbp> it greps for a list of articles linking to the current one and outputs them
01:48:53 <thelsdj> ya we do have backlinks, i think maybe backlinks don't work unless its a new article
01:49:06 <thelsdj> ie. if ending an old one they don't show up
01:49:15 <thelsdj> er editing
01:49:37 <sbp> crschmidt: bia is being slow to login to. any idea why?
01:50:09 <sbp> it's hanging when I rsync to it
01:50:09 <sbp> HTTP seems to be working fine though, with no delay
01:50:46 <thelsdj> might be dns, ssh has issues if can't reverse lookup the connecting ip
01:54:27 <sbp`> nope, I seem to be losing packets to random servers
01:54:38 <sbp`> including crushed and bia, and, for a time, irc.freenode.net
01:54:48 <sbp`> so I guess it must be a problem my end
01:56:09 <sbp> it's all back now...
01:58:31 <thelsdj> hrm i think its going to be one of those nites where i pass out at 7:30pm and wake up at 1am and can't get back to sleep till 5am
01:58:59 <sbp> .t thelsdj
01:59:02 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, I don't know about the 'thelsdj' timezone.
01:59:37 <thelsdj> .t mst
01:59:38 <thelsdj> i think
01:59:39 <phenny> Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:57:44 mst
01:59:55 <thelsdj> thats about right
02:00:09 <sbp> heh, heh
02:00:39 <thelsdj> i was up till 5am watching someone play elder scrolls: oblivion on gamespot and doing random web crap, and up again at 9:30am, been up ever since
02:00:48 <sbp> .reload timing
02:00:51 <phenny> Reloaded "timing".
02:00:51 <sbp> .t mst
02:00:54 <phenny> Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:58:59 MST
02:01:08 <sbp> mmm... normalised time zone names
02:01:22 <sbp> at least you should sleep better tonight
02:01:23 <thelsdj> took me a second to catch that heh
02:02:33 <deltab> sbp: I looked up that Japanese phrase you gave; I got several results about Adobe acquiring Macromedia
02:02:47 <sbp> deltab: heh!
02:03:39 <sbp> 後背位, v. 1) To acquire. 2) To engage in canis sexulae.
02:04:16 BigJibby (n=matt@mtl58-11-156-122.dialup.sprint-canada.net) has joined #swhack
02:04:31 <sbp> I need to make reload give some more information
02:04:50 <thelsdj> i love the penny arcade membership process for getting access to extra content
02:04:55 <sbp> oh?
02:04:57 <thelsdj> heres the explanation from today:
02:04:58 <thelsdj> We’ve decided to make the podcast ultra ultimate hyper content. That means you will need to be a member of Penny Arcade Supreme™, our member’s only service. However, by coming to our page today you have all qualified for an unlimited lifetime membership good for all infinity!
02:05:15 edsu has quit ("leaving")
02:05:17 <deltab> who is their member?
02:05:43 <thelsdj> whenever they put up something extra they explain that you have to be a member, and the fact that everyone is a member in some silly way like above
02:06:04 <deltab> "Penny Arcade Supreme™, our member’s only service"
02:06:25 vIkSiT (n=viksit@68.63.158.239) has joined #swhack
02:06:25 <Monty> But what does vIkSiT have to do with the price of fish?
02:06:33 <sbp> chuckle
02:06:38 Ash (i=aaron@outofband.org) has joined #swhack
02:06:40 <thelsdj> ah yes, now i see, should not have a '
02:06:46 <sbp> less members than there are Apple users
02:06:48 <vIkSiT> lol
02:06:58 <sbp> ASH
02:07:08 <vIkSiT> is that all Monty can do? :)
02:07:09 <Monty> swhack people!
02:07:12 <Ash> oh damn how did I get in here
02:07:17 <Ash> DAMN YOU EST
02:07:19 <sbp> yeah what the hell
02:07:22 <est> :o
02:07:28 * est sorry
02:07:58 <sbp> est: Ash hates us :( :( :(
02:08:09 <deltab> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Bench
02:08:09 * est cry
02:08:14 <thelsdj> ha, i forgot that wikke actually sticks itself on the end of every post it creates
02:08:15 *** Ash changed the topic to: "<est> maybe powerful floatation buttocks OF DOOM will make the difference"
02:08:33 <est> :o
02:08:37 <Ash> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floatation_Buttocks
02:08:42 <sbp> thelsdj: ooh, have you got a public instance running somewhere?
02:08:55 <thelsdj> sbp: no, just looking at old pages it created
02:09:10 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
02:09:12 <Monty> "I don't have no cow level :((((
02:11:49 *** bear_dinner is now known as bear
02:12:40 <sbp> thelsdj: aha. could you throw them up in a tar or something too, please?
02:12:49 <sbp> .reload reload
02:12:52 <phenny> Reloaded "reload".
02:12:57 <sbp> .reload reload
02:12:59 <phenny> ValueError: unsupported format character 'Y' (0x59) at index 1 (file "/home/sbp/phenny/modules/reload.py", line 18, in f_reload)
02:13:02 <sbp> arse
02:13:40 <sbp> well that's screwed that up then
02:14:29 * sbp tries using .eval
02:14:34 <thelsdj> http://thelsdj.org/wikke.tar.gz is everything
02:14:57 <Ash> .bleval
02:15:20 <sbp> thelsdj: thanks
02:15:25 <Ash> sbp: http://achewood.com/index.php?date=06052003
02:16:48 <sbp> Up yours Mr. Bear
02:17:41 <Ash> hehe
02:17:44 <Ash> i love it
02:21:25 phenny has quit (Remote closed the connection)
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02:22:03 <sbp> note: do not pwn your bootstrapping mechanism
02:22:14 nsh has quit (Connection timed out)
02:23:05 <sbp> .reload reload
02:23:06 <phenny> AttributeError: '_socketobject' object has no attribute 'register' (file "/usr/lib/python2.4/asyncore.py", line 366, in __getattr__)
02:23:10 <Ash> RELOAD
02:23:15 * Ash refreshes the channel
02:23:29 <sbp> damn stale pyo files...
02:23:36 <Ash> ha ha python sux
02:23:38 <sbp> phenny: leap on Ash's head
02:23:47 <sbp> DO AS IS MY BIDDING
02:24:26 <Ash> NO
02:24:27 <Ash> DON'T
02:24:28 <Ash> STOP
02:24:32 <Ash> PHENNY, NOOOOOOOOOOO
02:24:45 phenny has quit (Remote closed the connection)
02:24:54 <Ash> ha ha ha i win
02:25:04 <sbp> she'll be back with rocket launchers
02:25:13 phenny (n=phenny@bia.crschmidt.net) has joined #swhack
02:25:15 <Ash> good, bad
02:25:17 <Ash> i'm the guy with the gun
02:25:32 <Ash> have you watched Evil Dead, ED 2 and Army of Darkness yet, sbp?
02:25:35 <sbp> .reload reload
02:25:35 <phenny> sbp: <module 'modules.reload' from '/home/sbp/phenny/modules/reload.pyo'> (version: 2006-03-22 02:22:52)
02:25:40 <sbp> I have not, nope
02:25:49 <Ash> damn dude
02:25:52 <Ash> add to the top of your queue
02:25:56 <Ash> or face the consequences
02:26:05 <sbp> Truth or Consequences!
02:26:10 <madewokherd> I'm suddenly intrigued
02:26:13 <madewokherd> bu this bot
02:26:17 <madewokherd> *by
02:26:22 <sbp> madewokherd: http://inamidst.com/phenny/
02:26:30 <sbp> links to browsable and downloadable source included
02:26:53 * madewokherd reads reload.py
02:27:56 * madewokherd reads irc.register
02:28:29 <sbp> it's phenny.Phenny.register
02:28:36 <Ash> sbp
02:28:39 <Ash> that is freaking insane
02:28:55 <sbp> what is
02:29:03 <Ash> self.__self__.Phenny.pHeNnY.r3gi5t3r()
02:29:11 <madewokherd> ...
02:29:17 <sbp> well, inside the bot it's just self.register()
02:29:23 <madewokherd> why am I not seeing anything that looks vaguely like that?
02:29:37 <sbp> grep for "def register" in http://inamidst.com/phenny/phenny.py
02:29:49 <sbp> if you downloaded the source, it might be out of date a bit
02:30:03 <sbp> the browsable code online is the latest cutting edge unstable code
02:30:20 <madewokherd> oh
02:31:05 * sbp makes a new release
02:31:08 <Ash> <sbp> and these are different for a *very* good reason
02:31:18 <sbp> reason: laziness
02:31:52 <Ash> well I almost said that
02:31:59 <sbp> heh, heh
02:32:36 <madewokherd> any time I see a crazy irc system like this I must understand it
02:32:49 <madewokherd> because there might be ideas worth stealing
02:33:06 <sbp> heh
02:33:08 <est> Ash
02:33:11 <Ash> hi est
02:33:16 <Ash> is my macbook ordered yet
02:33:25 <est> behave
02:33:27 <Ash> i'd like the 2.16Ghz option with 2gb of ram and the 7200rpm hard drive
02:33:32 <sbp> wtf, est. you haven't ordered Ash his Macbook yet?
02:33:33 <sbp> why not?
02:33:38 <Ash> that should be a good QA system
02:33:43 <est> :o
02:33:55 <est> you peeps are ganging up on me
02:34:42 <madewokherd> not me, but I don't know what the discussion is about
02:34:57 <Ash> est, how am I supposed to work on common lisp compilers for OS X/intel without a macbook
02:35:00 <Ash> impossible!
02:35:01 <madewokherd> if I did I'd certainly want in on the ganging up
02:35:07 <madewokherd> that came out wrong
02:35:27 <sbp> I don't think it did...
02:35:50 <madewokherd> uh
02:35:56 <est> Ash: cl is tired
02:36:01 <madewokherd> are you using regular expressions somewhere?
02:36:13 <Ash> est: by 'common lisp' compilers i mean 'e7lisp' of course
02:36:14 <Ash> ;)
02:36:28 <sbp> madewokherd: a few places. why?
02:36:29 <madewokherd> some of this looks suspiciously like regular expressions
02:36:49 <sbp> if it says "re.compile", that's probably an indication, yeah
02:36:51 <madewokherd> if you were, my desire to understand this would be greatly reduced
02:37:21 <BigJibby> too much fun: http://www.randomchaos.com/games/fastr/
02:37:48 <est> sbp: you used regular expressions???!!! :o
02:37:56 <madewokherd> yeah..
02:37:59 <madewokherd> never mind
02:38:04 * madewokherd goes back to what he was doing
02:38:15 <sbp> est: isn't it shocking? the youth of today
02:38:18 <est> i now have no desire to understand madewokherd
02:38:29 <sbp> with their hooch and their porngraphy and their regular expressions
02:38:41 <madewokherd> "hooch"?
02:38:58 <sbp> their bananas and blow, their meth-amphetamine, and their utf-8b
02:39:05 <sbp> hooch is booze, man
02:39:06 <madewokherd> b?
02:39:15 <est> hay..wait a minute
02:39:21 <sbp> utf-8 with binary allowed to be interspersed
02:39:44 <madewokherd> how does that work?
02:39:58 <madewokherd> I mean
02:39:59 <sbp> if you can't decode it as utf-8, it's binary, as far as I know
02:40:05 <KragenSitaker> kind of like ascii with binary allowed to be interpsersed
02:40:08 <KragenSitaker> markus g. kuhn invented it
02:40:28 <madewokherd> that would be convenient
02:40:36 * madewokherd looks for it in codecs
02:40:40 <KragenSitaker> so codec errors are impossible
02:40:51 <KragenSitaker> it isn't widely implemented yet. he hasn't, like, written a web page about it or anything.
02:41:15 <madewokherd> what I've been doing is falling back on latin-1 or whatever
02:41:20 <est> KragenSitaker: what implementations do you know of?
02:41:23 <sbp> .compare utf-8 utf-8b utf-16
02:41:26 <phenny> utf-8 (75,700,000), utf-16 (2,250,000), utf-8b (171)
02:41:38 <KragenSitaker> est: yours and ben sittler's
02:41:53 <est> oh..i dont know the ben sittler one
02:41:58 <sbp> est: where's yours?
02:42:12 <est> sbp: uh..here :)
02:42:25 <KragenSitaker> /dcc send sbp
02:42:37 <sbp> a smiley is not an implementation of anything
02:43:00 <sbp> except of a close-comment in the non-XML XQuery syntax
02:44:20 <est> sbp: i wrote it less than 2 weeks ago
02:45:09 mumbles has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: www.XLhost.de )")
02:46:08 <sbp> and it's not online?
02:46:15 <est> nope
02:46:16 <sbp> what language is it in?
02:46:20 <sbp> why is it not online?
02:46:37 <KragenSitaker> ben's is in python
02:46:43 <KragenSitaker> i think it's online as part of the tpd project but i'm not sure
02:46:46 <est> it's in C++
02:47:07 <KragenSitaker> (C++)-- for writing reusable library code
02:47:26 <est> ok..well i was thinking of recasting it in C
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02:47:50 <est> ..which it already is, for the most part
02:47:51 <KragenSitaker> someone will probably do that at some point
02:47:54 <KragenSitaker> it doesn't have to be you :)
02:47:59 <est> good point
02:48:24 <sbp> KragenSitaker: confirmed. it's in http://www.commerce.net/wiki/images/d/d1/tpd-491.tar.gz tpd-491/encodings/utf_8b.py
02:48:44 <KragenSitaker> oh good
02:48:51 <KragenSitaker> that's under some kind of reasonable license?
02:49:09 <est> ok..i need a license..and there was one thing i wanted to fix
02:49:22 <sbp> Summary: use U+DCyz to represent each invalid input byte 0xyz rather
02:49:23 <sbp> than treating these bytes as decoding errors.
02:49:35 <sbp> license is LGPL
02:49:46 <KragenSitaker> est: probably utf-8b codecs should be licensed under X11-ish licenses if possible
02:50:06 <KragenSitaker> since having your competitors' software not be able to use your unicode codec kind of defeats the opint
02:50:18 <KragenSitaker> unless you're the dominant player in the market and also immune to moral suasion
02:50:36 <KragenSitaker> lgpl is reasonable but not ideal
02:51:05 <sbp> KragenSitaker: what is ideal, for you? apart from public domain...
02:51:14 <sbp> oh, X11-ish licenses I presume
02:51:17 <KragenSitaker> in this case, yes
02:51:22 <sbp> right
02:51:25 <KragenSitaker> generally i prefer GPL :)
02:51:43 <KragenSitaker> for larget hings. small things i dedicate to the public domain
02:53:59 <est> sbp: utf8b made me very happy
02:54:35 <KragenSitaker> i think ben was going to rewrite the codec in C for speed
02:55:17 <sbp> >>> import utf_8b
02:55:17 <sbp> >>> u'\u203D'.encode('utf-8')
02:55:17 <sbp> '\xe2\x80\xbd'
02:55:17 <sbp> >>> '\xe2\x80\xbd\xab'.decode('utf-8b')
02:55:17 <sbp> u'\u203d\udcab'
02:55:18 <sbp> >>>
02:55:25 <sbp> 'tworks
02:55:48 <sbp> would be nice if it were included in Python 2.5 or something
02:56:00 <madewokherd> I'd use it
02:56:15 <KragenSitaker> i wonder if that would create any licensing problems
02:56:18 <KragenSitaker> probably
02:56:29 <sbp> >>> u'\u203d\udcab'.encode('utf-8')
02:56:29 <sbp> '\xe2\x80\xbd\xed\xb2\xab'
02:56:29 <sbp> >>> u'\u203d\udcab'.encode('utf-8b')
02:56:29 <sbp> '\xe2\x80\xbd\xab'
02:56:29 <sbp> >>>
02:57:02 <est> well, what *wouldn't* create licensing problems..because i can easily create python bindings for my stuff
02:57:46 <KragenSitaker> x11, or public domain, or python license. i think. i could be wrong.
02:57:58 <KragenSitaker> sbp: that's a little odd!
02:57:58 <BeHappy_> why an utf-8b? the "plain" -8 isn't good?
02:58:06 <sbp> odd? how so?
02:58:50 <KragenSitaker> you're encoding the same string in utf-8 and utf-8b, and getting two different results? i thought utf-8b was supposed to be equivalent to utf-8 except for error cases
02:59:31 <sbp> but note that the input is using one of the surrogates assigned for handling the superfluous bytes
02:59:38 <sbp> otherwise, how could you round trip?
02:59:39 <KragenSitaker> ohh
02:59:53 <KragenSitaker> shouldn't .encode('utf-8') give you an error in that case?
02:59:58 <madewokherd> wikipedia says the python license is compatible with the gpl
03:00:09 <KragenSitaker> madewokherd: in one direction only :)
03:00:43 <KragenSitaker> sbp: since when you translate surrogate pairs into utf-8, you're supposed to get a single long utf-8 sequence representing the character, not the two surrogates.
03:00:51 <madewokherd> "is compatible with" is directional?
03:00:57 <KragenSitaker> madewokherd: yes
03:00:59 <est> sigh..can i use //-comments in "C" these days?
03:00:59 <sbp> yeah, but there's no pair here. it's a single surrogate
03:01:04 <KragenSitaker> i guess that's encoding from utf-16, not ucs-2 or ucs-4
03:01:09 <KragenSitaker> est: in c9x
03:01:48 JibberJim (n=none@port0089-adc-adsl.cwjamaica.com) has joined #swhack
03:01:55 <KragenSitaker> madewokherd: if you combine a GPL work and a Python-licensed work, the combined work can be treated as if it were under the GPL, but not as if it were under the python license
03:02:22 <madewokherd> can "is compatible with" tell you in which direction that works?
03:03:27 <KragenSitaker> "is compatible with" just means that it is legally possible to redistribute etc. the resulting combined work at all, not under what license
03:03:57 <madewokherd> ah
03:04:06 <KragenSitaker> however the GPL is not compatible with anything that creates further restrictions
03:04:28 <KragenSitaker> and other licenses generally don't have compatibility problems with each other
03:07:33 <KragenSitaker> the author of the utf-8b codec from tpd says:
03:07:44 <KragenSitaker> personally i don't see any reason to reimplement it or go threough the pain of trying to get it reissued under a different license just to serve the python community in their poorly-licensed backwater
03:07:59 <KragenSitaker> but i may someday write some similar code in c to join libiconv
03:08:28 jcowan (i=jcowan@cpe-66-108-115-235.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
03:08:32 <sbp> thankfully, I didn't peruse the source
03:08:41 <sbp> so I'm untainted and could implement it myself...
03:08:51 <sbp> hi there jcowan. we're discussing utf-8b implementations
03:08:53 <est> me too :)
03:08:54 <jcowan> Always good.
03:09:08 <jcowan> Remind me what 8B is.
03:09:15 <JibberJim> it's a very soft pencil
03:09:21 <jcowan> Yeah, yeah.
03:09:28 * jcowan read Petrowski on that subject.
03:09:35 <sbp> it's like utf-8, but any unknown bytes get decoded as U+DCHH
03:10:00 <jcowan> Oho.
03:10:07 <jcowan> AIYCA.
03:10:11 <sbp> :-)
03:10:14 <sbp> but note this behaviour:
03:10:14 <sbp> <sbp> >>> u'\u203d\udcab'.encode('utf-8')
03:10:14 <sbp> <sbp> '\xe2\x80\xbd\xed\xb2\xab'
03:10:14 <sbp> <sbp> >>> u'\u203d\udcab'.encode('utf-8b')
03:10:14 <sbp> <sbp> '\xe2\x80\xbd\xab'
03:10:22 <sbp> Kragen was wondering if that was correct
03:10:56 <sbp> I'm still trying to parse his argument
03:11:56 <sbp> <KragenSitaker> sbp: since when you translate surrogate pairs into utf-8, you're supposed to get a single long utf-8 sequence representing the character, not the two surrogates.
03:12:15 <est> that's what mine gives too
03:12:17 <sbp> but what's being encoded by the surrogate here is \xab, and it's being decoded correctly
03:12:33 <sbp> surrogate pairs only get decoded to a single character when decoded as utf-16
03:12:58 <KragenSitaker> AIYCA?
03:13:13 <sbp> And Its Younger Cozen "Aha"
03:13:15 <est> the halves of surrogate pairs aren't valid utf-8, afaik
03:13:45 <KragenSitaker> i thought u'\uxxxx' in Python meant "the unicode character xxxx" not "the utf-16 word xxxx"
03:13:55 <KragenSitaker> that is, the UCS-2 character xxxx, not the utf-16 word xxxx
03:14:01 <sbp> yeah
03:14:07 <est> yes
03:14:51 <KragenSitaker> and i thought that utf-8b when transcoding between utf-8 and ucs-4 was specified to use code points outside the 17 planes representable in utf-16
03:14:59 <twe> So planes can find the etymology for "convinient". Try http://etymonline.com/?term=was.
03:15:01 <est> 203d turns into those first 3 bytes..and dcab into the last one
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03:15:33 <est> KragenSitaker: it uses codepoints from the surrogate pair range since they are not permitted in utf-8
03:15:49 <jcowan> They *are* permitted. Just not as a representation of an Astral Plane character.
03:15:50 <KragenSitaker> oh, ok
03:16:15 <KragenSitaker> so '\xed\xb2\xab', as produced by .encode('utf-8') above, is illegal utf-8?
03:16:24 <jcowan> No, totally legal.
03:17:00 <jcowan> What's illegal is to take a stream of Unicode values, encode them as UTF-16, and then re-encode that as UTF-8.
03:17:09 <jcowan> If you do that, you get a bogus encoding called CESU-8.
03:17:20 <jcowan> (It's got a name so it can be talked about.)
03:17:31 <KragenSitaker> ha
03:17:37 <KragenSitaker> i see
03:18:03 <sbp> like this?
03:18:04 <sbp> >>> u'\u203D\uDCAB'.encode('utf-8')
03:18:04 <sbp> '\xe2\x80\xbd\xed\xb2\xab'
03:18:06 <sbp> >>> '\xe2\x80\xbd\xed\xb2\xab'.decode('utf-16')
03:18:06 <sbp> u'\u80e2\uedbd\uabb2'
03:18:21 <KragenSitaker> no
03:18:47 <jcowan> No. CESU-8 encodes Astral Plane characters as two consecutive 3-byte surrogates.
03:18:58 <jcowan> whereas UTF-8 encodes them as a single 4-byte sequence.
03:19:07 <jcowan> s/surrogates/sequences
03:19:35 <KragenSitaker> thanks for the enlightenment jcowan :)
03:20:00 <jcowan> So it's perfectly legal to decode UTF-8 into Unicode scalar values that include surrogates, it's just that such surrogates have no known meaning.
03:20:14 <madewokherd> I'm sure I would find all of this very interesting if I understood how utf-8 worked :/
03:20:28 <jcowan> madewokherd: do you want to understand?
03:20:40 * jcowan tries to avoid letting his Geek Answer Syndrome take over.
03:20:41 <madewokherd> not enough to put in the effort
03:20:57 <KragenSitaker> madewokherd: you chop up a unicode character into six-bit chunks, starting from the right. then you put each chunk into a byte, with some tag bits at the beginning.
03:21:35 <KragenSitaker> you stop when you run out of nonzero bits. then you stick some more tag bits in the byte with the leftover bits to say how long the sequence is.
03:21:39 <jcowan> The result is arranged to have certain convenient properties, like bytes 00-7F represent the Unicode versions of ASCII characters, and are never used for anything else.
03:21:42 <KragenSitaker> basically
03:21:48 <madewokherd> I knew that
03:21:53 <madewokherd> the 00-7F thing
03:22:27 <madewokherd> it's very convenient, because it means I don't have to know how it really works :p
03:22:34 <jcowan> Unicode characters from 0080 to 07FF fit in 2 bytes, from 0800 to FFFF in three bytes, and from 10000 to 10FFFF in four bytes.
03:23:10 <madewokherd> wait
03:23:19 <madewokherd> it goes from 8000-FFFF
03:23:27 <sbp> the Astral Plane is presumably > U+FFFF?
03:23:29 <KragenSitaker> so the tag bit sequences are '0': one byte; '10': non-first byte; '110': first byte of a two-byte sequence; '1110': first byte of a three-byte sequence; '11110': first byte of a four-byte sequence; etc.
03:23:36 <jcowan> sbp: yes
03:23:38 <madewokherd> and then 10000-1FFFF?
03:23:46 <jcowan> 10FFFF.
03:23:49 <KragenSitaker> the astral plane is only up to 10ffff
03:23:57 <jcowan> s/astral plane/astral planes
03:24:05 <madewokherd> um
03:24:15 <KragenSitaker> 0x00110000 up to 0xffffffff is not representable in utf-16 but is representable in utf-8
03:24:19 <madewokherd> ok
03:24:24 <jcowan> KragenSitaker: Not any more.
03:24:30 <KragenSitaker> no?
03:24:43 <madewokherd> that's a weird number to stop at..
03:24:44 <jcowan> No. UTF-8 now covers only the Unicode space, just like UTF-16.
03:25:09 <jcowan> madewokherd: it's an artifact of the way UTF-16 works (which codes Unicode in 16-bit words)
03:25:10 <KragenSitaker> madewokherd: it has to do with the way the surrogate pairs work
03:25:16 <jcowan> gmta
03:26:12 <KragenSitaker> jcowan: that's unfortunate, but it may not matter that much
03:26:21 <jcowan> What is?
03:26:26 <KragenSitaker> the limitation on utf-8
03:26:36 <KragenSitaker> because it increases the number of things known as 'utf-8'
03:27:22 <JibberJim> might that cause confusion?
03:27:22 <sbp> okay, so presumably *this* is CESU-8?:
03:27:22 <sbp> >>> u'\U0010FFFF'.encode('utf-16')
03:27:23 <sbp> '\xff\xfe\xff\xdb\xff\xdf'
03:28:22 <KragenSitaker> no, that's utf-16
03:28:40 <KragenSitaker> but if you pretend it's ucs-2 and encode that as utf-8 you get cesu-8
03:28:50 <sbp> ew
03:29:34 <madewokherd> what's ucs-2?
03:29:46 <sbp> Unicode
03:29:48 <jcowan> An obsolete encoding of Unicode into 16 bits.
03:29:57 <madewokherd> is that just taking pairs of bytes and interpreting them as characters?
03:30:02 <KragenSitaker> yes
03:30:10 <jcowan> It says: encode 0000-FFFF as 0000-FFFF and everythign above that can't be encoded.
03:30:15 <sbp> ah
03:31:10 <sbp> heh, Python gets that wrong:
03:31:10 <sbp> >>> unicode(u'\U0010FFFF'.encode('utf-16'), 'ucs-2')
03:31:10 <sbp> u'\U0010ffff'
03:31:53 <KragenSitaker> it's interesting that it dropped the BOM when you decoded it
03:32:16 <madewokherd> python..appears to have no ucs-2 codec :/
03:32:23 <KragenSitaker> not my python either
03:32:26 <KragenSitaker> but apparently sbp's python
03:32:51 <sbp> >>> sys.version
03:32:51 <sbp> '2.4.1 (#1, May 27 2005, 18:02:40) \n[GCC 3.3.3 (cygwin special)]'
03:33:02 <jcowan> Oracle implements CESU-8 as one of its database encodings
03:33:03 bsittler (n=bsittler@xent.com) has joined #swhack
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03:33:08 <jcowan> unfortunately under the name of "UTF8"
03:33:12 <sbp> there he was, and there he went
03:33:14 <madewokherd> sys.version => '2.4.2 (#67, Sep 28 2005, 12:41:11) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)]'
03:33:45 <madewokherd> wine :p
03:33:58 <KragenSitaker> heh
03:34:14 <KragenSitaker> <bsittler> oh and btw utf_8b.py includes a nice little utility called fix_cesu_8 ;)
03:34:15 <bsittler> HELP
03:34:23 <sbp> heh
03:34:32 <sbp> a simple /join #swhack won't suffice?
03:34:32 redmonk (n=steve@ip68-104-189-211.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack
03:34:34 <KragenSitaker> <bsittler> in case oracle ate your lunch ;)
03:34:38 <madewokherd> who turned off +n ?
03:34:47 <sbp> I did
03:34:52 <madewokherd> was it always like that?
03:34:52 <jcowan> What is +n?
03:34:59 <KragenSitaker> wow, i don't remember when i've ever seen a channel without +n
03:34:59 <madewokherd> no external messages
03:35:01 <sbp> prevents outside messages
03:35:12 <KragenSitaker> with +n only people on the channel can speak on the channel
03:35:14 <sbp> madewokherd: it's been like that for months or years, yeah
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03:35:30 <madewokherd> nice
03:35:36 <jcowan> I didn't even know that was ever allowed.
03:35:44 <KragenSitaker> i'd forgotten
03:36:01 edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #swhack
03:36:04 <jcowan> Is there also a flag that permits people not on the channel to read the channel?
03:36:13 bsittler (n=bsittler@xent.com) has joined #swhack
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03:36:17 <KragenSitaker> no, although there is a bot that does that
03:36:18 <madewokherd> that wouldn't work
03:36:30 <KragenSitaker> "on the channel" means "receiving messages from the channel"
03:36:39 <jcowan> Well, okay.
03:36:53 <madewokherd> I think there are flags on some servers where you can be on the channel and others can't tell
03:37:02 <jcowan> That's what I meant.
03:37:18 <madewokherd> I think there's one that hides joins or something
03:37:24 <madewokherd> so they could do /names
03:37:40 <madewokherd> but otherwise couldn't see new people
03:37:44 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "ucs-2 implementation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/18148
03:37:53 <sbp> presumably that's right?
03:38:22 <madewokherd> don't you have to encode that as utf-8?
03:39:12 <lisppaste2> sbp annotated #18148 with "CESU-8 implementation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/18148#1
03:39:22 <sbp> for CESU-8, yeah
03:39:42 <madewokherd> oh
03:39:53 <redmonk> swhack
03:40:32 <sbp> bsittler: so, nice implementation, but is it really not worth the bother to get it into Python 2.5?
03:40:39 <sbp> hi redmonk
03:41:04 <madewokherd> is it really efficient breaking up the string like that?
03:41:19 <madewokherd> lots of bytes[2:]'s..
03:42:13 <bsittler> hi, and thanks :) there would be a bit of hassle in getting the license changed to be python-compatible, and i really prefer lgpl
03:42:31 <sbp> madewokherd: nope, but it's the Lazy Way(TM). it should be in C anyway
03:42:36 <bsittler> i notice libiconv is lgpl too
03:43:04 <bsittler> i think a more logical and reusable way might be to reimplement it inside libiconv
03:43:20 <bsittler> so what are you trying to do with cesu-8 exactly?
03:43:23 <sbp> bsittler: but would that hassle be larger than having to download just a small part of tpd for every system that you wanted to use utf-8b on, and to have to import utf_8b in all the code that uses it?
03:43:29 <sbp> understand it
03:43:56 * jcowan doesn't understand how the U+04FA got into the act.
03:44:58 * madewokherd tries to figure out how to use array to convert the string
03:45:36 <madewokherd> oh wait
03:45:40 <madewokherd> sizes are machine-dependent
03:45:42 <sbp> jcowan: oh, my code sucks. that's why
03:45:44 <sbp> fixing...
03:45:46 * madewokherd does something else
03:46:37 <bsittler> i think the least-hassle way might be to port to c. i just downloaded libiconv and will look into that, time permitting.
03:46:54 <sbp> awesome
03:47:01 <KragenSitaker> there are definitely irc servers, like those used to coordinate botnets, that don't have a way to list or be notified of changes to the clients on a channel
03:47:46 <madewokherd> obscure irc servers save the day again
03:47:54 <madewokherd> wait..
03:48:30 <bsittler> cesu-8 is just like utf-8, except the characters from U+10000 - U+10FFFF are encoded by first converting to UTF-16, then encoding each UTF-16 codepoint (Separately!) as a UTF-8 sequence (as if it were UCS-2, basically)
03:48:45 <jcowan> Just so.
03:48:55 <sbp> oh, I had parens in the wrong place which made me thinking I was over-lshifting so I changed it and added parens separately and am now under-lshifting
03:49:45 <KragenSitaker> http://www.honeynet.org/papers/bots/
03:49:55 <lisppaste2> ucs-2 implementation (fixed) annotated #18148 with "sbp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/18148#2
03:50:16 <bsittler> you need to decode the individual utf-16 bytepairs into unicode characters befoire reencoding if you're using python codecs to produce cesu8
03:50:43 <lisppaste2> CESU-8 example (corrected) annotated #18148 with "sbp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/18148#3
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03:51:59 <KragenSitaker> i'm gonna have to run off now. i'm most of the way through 'P' in the oed
03:52:05 <KragenSitaker> but time is running out
03:52:10 <sbp> cool. c'ya KragenSitaker
03:52:26 <KragenSitaker> i need to find someone, preferably in ths bay area, who is interested in buying this first-eidtion oed when i'm done iwth it in a week or two
03:52:58 <sbp> what kind of price range?
03:53:01 <jcowan> You're scanning it? For gutenberg or such?
03:53:32 <bsittler> oh, use 'utf-16be' or 'utf-16le' rather than 'utf-16' to aboid the byte order mark in your output
03:53:46 <sbp> aha, thanks
03:55:45 <lisppaste2> CESU-8 example (supercorrected) annotated #18148 with "sbp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/18148#4
03:56:02 <jcowan> Indeed. Note that if you decode input as UTF-16LE or BE, and there *is* a BOM, it will be interpreted as a U+FEFF character.
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03:57:32 <est> bsittler: ive done a C implementation
03:58:16 <sbp> thought it was C++?
03:58:35 <sbp> oh, but it'll be easy to port you say
03:58:36 <JibberJim> supybot, C++
03:58:43 <est> sbp: since i said that, ive made a c version :)
03:58:45 <JibberJim> go to starboard then!
03:58:47 <sbp> ha!
03:59:05 <sbp> *very* easy to port :-)
03:59:08 <est> ..tested it too
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04:00:33 <bsittler> est, c iojmplementation of which?
04:00:45 <est> utf-8b
04:01:26 <bsittler> cool! will you put it into libiconv?
04:01:34 <bsittler> or make it otherwise available?
04:01:51 <est> yes, ill make it available soon
04:02:12 <est> just need to get license stuff in there
04:02:22 <bsittler> yay! :)
04:02:39 <bsittler> and sbp, cesu-8 is tricky unless you write it yourself, basically
04:02:56 <bsittler> the python utf-16b decoder won't acccept a half-surrogate
04:03:11 <jcowan> Now we have UTF-16B? And phwat is phthat?
04:03:35 <bsittler> er i meant utf-16
04:04:39 <jcowan> What is the internal model of Python unicode strings?
04:04:52 <bsittler> it varies by platform
04:04:54 <jcowan> i.e. when you ask for a count of characters, do you get a count of characters, or a count of UTF-16 objects, or what?
04:05:01 <bsittler> some use utf-16, some use utf-32
04:05:11 <jcowan> Ugh.
04:05:13 <bsittler> so the counts vary too
04:05:17 <deltab> there are narrow (UTF-16) and wide (UTF-32) builds
04:05:25 <jcowan> So it's unportable to use them? Gross.
04:05:42 <bsittler> you get a count of wchar_t's, basically
04:05:49 <deltab> only if you're doing things that depend on counting
04:05:55 <bsittler> if you're porting, use utf-8 instead :)
04:06:03 <bsittler> bytes == bytes
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04:13:58 <bsittler> http://xent.com/~bsittler/cesu8.py
04:14:09 <bsittler> and i will now go idle
04:15:12 <sbp> cool, thanks
04:17:46 <Ash> STABBY.PY
04:18:28 <jsled> Now we need to create BrainYuck, just so stab.by will be executable.
04:18:41 <Ash> brilliant jsled
04:18:54 <Ash> by = byte-compiled python
04:18:56 <Ash> obviously
04:19:09 <madewokherd> that's pyc/pyo I think..
04:19:20 <Ash> madewokherd: yeah we need to make them use 'by' now
04:19:21 <jsled> Round 8 question 8 tonight was: "how many bits are in a byte". Fuckers.
04:19:25 <sbp> yeah. BrainYuck could be specified as follows:
04:19:53 <sbp> read each byte of the input. if the byte is between 0x00 and 0xFF inclusive, stab the user in the face. read on until all bytes in the input file have been read
04:19:59 <jsled> heh.
04:20:00 <twe> And if i know of.
04:20:15 <jsled> INCLUSIVE.
04:20:34 <madewokherd> how do you write hello world in that?
04:21:48 <sbp> "hello world". the program stabs the user in the face eleven times
04:22:16 <sbp> each stab should be in the shape of the input character
04:22:21 <sbp> if it's a printable ASCII character
04:23:29 <madewokherd> is there a bot here that can remind me to do something in 20 years?
04:23:54 <sbp> yeah, Monty
04:23:58 <Monty> And phwat is lgpl too hard on expensive hardware (300 quid for footnote markers.
04:24:01 <sbp> you'll probably have to specify the argument in days though
04:24:08 <sbp> "Monty: remind me in N days to ..."
04:24:10 <Monty> KragenSitaker: Not in canis sexulae.
04:24:17 <sbp> you can use .calc to work out the amount of days
04:24:24 <sbp> .calc 365.25 * 20
04:24:25 <madewokherd> I have /pyeval for that
04:24:27 <phenny> 365.25 * 20 = 7 305
04:24:36 <sbp> but then it's not logged!
04:24:44 <madewokherd> I have /pyeval -s for that
04:24:58 <sbp> but then the input command isn't logged! (is it?)
04:25:01 <madewokherd> "this is logged".encode('rot13') => 'guvf vf ybttrq'
04:25:09 <sbp> aha. cool
04:25:16 <bancus> Orville Redenbacher's Gourmet Popping Corn Now Available at Amazon.com
04:25:19 <bancus> what the motherfuck
04:26:42 <madewokherd> is there a command that gives me the address of phenny's source?
04:26:52 <sbp> phenny: help?
04:26:54 <phenny> Hi, I'm phenny (http://inamidst.com/phenny/)
04:26:57 <phenny> Commands: beats, charinfo, codepoint, compare, gimage, google, googlecalc, googlecount, httphead, map, myersbriggs, podecoint, rate, remind, representation, seen, swhackorigin, swhacktail, thesaurus, time, validate, wordnet
04:27:00 <Ash> HI PHENNY SHUT UP
04:27:01 <phenny> Try "phenny: help command?" if stuck. My owner is sbp.
04:27:17 <phenny> HI ASH SHUP FOO YOURSELF
04:27:19 <Ash> Dear Phenny,
04:27:21 <Ash> Shut up
04:27:22 <madewokherd> oh, it uses google
04:27:22 <Ash> Love,
04:27:23 <Ash> Ash
04:27:40 <Ash> Dear Sbp talking through phenny's stdin,
04:27:44 <Ash> we all know it's YOU
04:27:47 <Ash> Love,
04:27:47 <Ash> Ash
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04:30:57 <sbp> not stdin
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04:35:14 <bancus> anyone know where I can get an mp3 of the zelda theme?
04:35:59 * madewokherd checks his illegally downloaded ssbm music
04:35:59 bjoern_ has quit ("Quit")
04:36:55 <est> phenny: help beats
04:36:57 <phenny> '.beats - Returns the current internet time'
04:37:05 <madewokherd> not there
04:37:27 <crschmidt> sbp: I was out drinking
04:37:30 <crschmidt> and am now drunk
04:37:37 <crschmidt> so i can't check my bia packetloss logs
04:43:24 <sbp> no problem. I had the same problem to crushed etc. too
04:43:29 <sbp> so I presume that it was a problem my end
04:43:36 <sbp> .beats
04:43:39 <phenny> @237
04:43:40 <supybot> phenny: Error: "237" is not a valid command.
04:43:43 <bancus> heh
04:54:31 <deltab> bancus: Google
04:55:04 <sbp> .g zelda theme MP3
04:55:07 <phenny> zelda theme MP3: http://www.ganonstower.com/mod.shtml
04:55:41 <sbp> -> http://www.ganonstower.com/zeldatheme.zip
04:56:11 <bancus> awesome, thanks
04:56:18 <bancus> I had it as a midi, but mp3 would sound better on my phone
04:57:26 <bancus> ew
04:57:29 <bancus> it's some newfangled one
04:57:35 <bancus> I'm looking specifically for the NES theme
04:57:45 <bancus> .g zelda nes theme mp3
04:57:53 <phenny> zelda nes theme mp3: http://of-zelda-mp3.smusic.info/
04:58:26 <bsittler> est: would love a url (opr give it to KragenSitaker) when you're ready to release your C implementation of utf-8b
04:58:42 <bsittler> in the meantime i think i'll go learn about libiconv
04:58:54 <bsittler> it's been a pleasure, bye!
04:59:32 bsittler has parted #swhack ()
05:00:30 <bancus> http://www.emp3world.com/to_download.php?id=87071 is what I'm looking for
05:00:57 <sbp> gah, I'm hungry
05:01:03 <sbp> and nautical twilight only just started
05:02:43 <sbp> crackers and chocolate. a winning combination!
05:03:11 <bancus> except the damn thing is 2MB
05:03:12 <bancus> WTF
05:04:49 <bancus> it's almost five minutes long
05:04:52 <bancus> What the hell
05:05:08 <est> bancus: ever get info re your query of last night?
05:05:15 <bancus> which one was that?
05:06:22 <bancus> oh, it's like every song is the game
05:06:33 <bancus> in the game
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05:14:01 <est> yes..kragen is still keeping track of who's naughty and who's nice
05:14:25 <KragenSitaker> actually my irc client is not logging #swhack at the moment
05:14:28 <KragenSitaker> but other people's might be
05:14:39 <madewokherd> mine is
05:14:39 <Ash> it gets blogged
05:14:52 <madewokherd> it also logs things that I type and then delete
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05:16:44 <est> you can count on ash
05:17:21 * madewokherd types something and then deletes it, for demonstration purposes
05:17:43 <sbp> I... darn, where is jcowan?
05:17:57 <sbp> can someone thing of a good module name for a Python module which computes sunrise and sunset times?
05:18:01 <sbp> s/thing/think/
05:21:25 <est> sbp: slightly related: how do you do that?
05:21:39 <est> like, libnova looked kinda good
05:21:43 <est> last i looked
05:22:08 <Ash> libsupernova
05:22:38 <Ash> sbp: use urllib2 and snag that information from an internet web-site
05:23:36 <sbp> est: how do I know what?
05:24:47 <est> how do you compute sunset and sunrise times?
05:25:26 <KragenSitaker> sbp: ephemerides?
05:25:37 <KragenSitaker> although clearly a module named that should do more than sunset and sunrise
05:25:49 <sbp> I'm modifying http://kortis.to/radix/python/code/Sun.py
05:25:51 <sbp> yeah
05:26:38 <madewokherd> verbosely_named_module_that_calculates_sunrise_and_sunset_times.py
05:26:40 <madewokherd> now
05:26:46 <madewokherd> pick one of those words randomly and use it
05:27:25 <bancus> call it fiddler
05:27:32 <bancus> http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/fiddlerontheroof/sunrisesunset.htm
05:27:53 <madewokherd> 'verbosely_named_module_that_calculates_sunrise_and_sunset_times'.split('_')[random.randint(1,9)]+'.py' => 'sunrise.py'
05:28:01 <madewokherd> damn
05:28:09 <madewokherd> I was hoping for something like 'and.py'
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05:28:33 <madewokherd> oh wait
05:28:41 <madewokherd> that should be randint(0,8)
05:28:51 <bancus> indeed
05:29:20 <madewokherd> well, the 9 gets mapped to a 0
05:31:45 <est> indian calendrics is entertaining
05:32:10 <est> what day it is depends on how you calculate the time of sunrise and the position of the moon
05:32:31 *** bear is now known as bear_dinner
05:34:38 <est> ..and days can be skipped or repeated
05:38:16 <Ash> retarded
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05:47:39 <est> Ash: have you no respect for tradition?
05:49:13 <sbp> um, no. he doesn't
05:49:14 <Ash> hi
05:49:17 <Ash> what's tradition
05:49:20 <sbp> he is ASH for goodness' sake
05:49:22 <Ash> is that the stuff I like to BLOW UP
05:51:30 <sbp> Is it
05:51:34 <sbp> That stuff?
05:51:37 <sbp> That Ash likes
05:51:41 <sbp> To Blow Up?
05:51:48 <sbp> o/`
05:52:51 <Ash> sbp, make a song about ash
05:53:03 <Ash> be sure to submit it to the Ash Review Board before publishing
05:53:39 <sbp> okay, hang on a moment
05:57:47 <deltab> sbp: I thought that was dolls
05:58:13 madewokherd has quit ("playing worms 3d")
06:00:41 <sbp> [[[
06:00:42 <sbp> IS YO DISSIN ON MA DOG MA MAN? I'LL CALL IN CAPTAIN ASH
06:00:42 <sbp> HE'LL BUST YO ASS FROM SAN TROPEZ AND PILFER ALL YO CASH
06:00:46 <sbp> AND GIVE IT TO THE HOMELESS CAUSE HE LIKES TO KEEP IT REAL
06:00:46 <sbp> LIKE WHEN HE STOLE THE MAFIA AND PUKED ON ALLY MCBEAL
06:00:50 <sbp> DUDE DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THE MAN HE GONNA GET UP IN YO FACE
06:00:50 <sbp> AND BURNINATE YO ASS TO HELL FORE BLASTIN YO TO SPACE
06:00:56 <sbp> BUT IF YO IS HIS HOMIES YO HE'LL CALL OUT CAPTAIN RAY
06:00:56 <sbp> AND GET ALL "DOOGGGGGGGG" AT YO, Y'KNOW, K PLZ THX LOLZOR K
06:00:57 <sbp> ]]]
06:01:08 <bancus> heh
06:01:17 <deltab> .gc ash-review-board
06:01:20 <phenny> ash-review-board: 6
06:07:19 <deltab> heh, there's something called Sweet Piece of Ash
06:07:46 <Ash> oh man
06:07:49 <Ash> sbp
06:07:50 <Ash> that is brilliant
06:08:26 <sbp> do you remember that Ash. do you remember when you stole the mafia
06:08:42 <Ash> no but it is part of my legend
06:08:47 <sbp> heh, heh
06:12:45 <Ash> sbp, that is an awesome song
06:12:46 <Ash> i love it
06:14:20 <sbp> feel free to use it as your official theme tune--that'd be great!
06:14:30 <sbp> Ashional Anthem
06:15:24 <Ash> bwahaha
06:16:03 <Ash> need somebody to record it
06:16:05 * Ash nods to sbp
06:16:09 <Ash> move zig.
06:20:51 <sbp> ZOMG. I'd have to get d8uv to give me some rappin' rap music to jiggy over it
06:21:01 <Ash> hehe
06:28:21 <Ash> sbp, do it in the style of dynamite hack covering "boyz in the hood'
06:28:22 <Ash> "
06:33:36 <est> sbp: you needin da mad loops for yo rhymes????
06:34:16 <Ash> yes get est to help
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06:52:32 <KragenSitaker> .swhack acronym
06:52:36 <phenny> KragenSitaker: http://swhack.com/logs/2006-03-18#T14-06-14
06:52:51 <KragenSitaker> @acronym fios
06:52:53 <supybot> KragenSitaker: No definitions found.
06:52:58 <KragenSitaker> .acronym fios
06:53:10 <KragenSitaker> monty: acronym fios
06:53:10 <Monty> "FIOS" - falling innovators or? STABBY.PY
06:53:15 <KragenSitaker> monty: acronym fios
06:53:15 <Monty> "FIOS" - funny, information objects, six-bit
06:53:43 <KragenSitaker> monty: acronym fttp
06:53:43 <Monty> "FTTP" - face though, though push
06:53:46 <KragenSitaker> monty: acronym fttp
06:53:46 <Monty> "FTTP" - fyi, totally Truth printing
06:53:48 <KragenSitaker> monty: acronym fttp
06:53:48 <Monty> "FTTP" - fileserve third to? Plex
06:53:51 <KragenSitaker> monty: acronym fttp
06:53:51 <Monty> "FTTP" - footnote twe: tav? parens
06:53:54 <KragenSitaker> monty: acronym fttp
06:53:54 <Monty> "FTTP" - For threough technical per
06:53:58 <KragenSitaker> monty: acronym fttp
06:53:58 <Monty> "FTTP" - federico29: tied thankfully personally
06:54:05 <twe> Oh, i had parens in the wall, the wall itself, and the most popular irc bots. Many of the twe!
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07:38:10 <sbp> gotta run
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07:43:35 <est> run, sbp, run!
07:43:38 <est> run run run!
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08:11:47 <Monty> it's libby!
08:15:23 <libby> it's monty!
08:15:33 <Monty> be new connections and everythign above that is acting as utf-8, it's only up proper dhcp, dns cache, web proxying, multi-homing the right. then you an undergrad to 0xffffffff is ideal, for hours
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09:36:13 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's libby!
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10:08:40 <KragenSitaker> yoz, your screencast is getting rave reviews
10:09:02 <KragenSitaker> i'm trying to figure out what to use to make screencasts on X
10:09:37 <KragenSitaker> byzanz sounds kind of handy from its i/o description but apparently i need to run gnome to use it
10:10:01 <KragenSitaker> camtasia seems to be the popular boy but doesn't run on linux
10:11:41 <KragenSitaker> vnc2swf worked ok last time i tried it but it has this problem that the output is SWF
10:13:03 <KragenSitaker> i'm not all that happy with camtasia's output either --- it's unduly hard to wget
10:14:12 <est> KragenSitaker: i want to figure that out too
10:14:37 <KragenSitaker> you do? i didn't know you had any macos machines
10:14:42 <KragenSitaker> i mean, non-macos machines
10:14:57 <est> oh..somehow i misread :o
10:15:21 <est> still..why not..ive been feeling more draw from linux lately
10:16:03 <est> what does camtasia output?
10:16:24 <KragenSitaker> an html file containing javascript
10:16:58 <est> eek
10:17:00 <KragenSitaker> which, when run, produces an embedded-object link to a tiny .swf file, which link also contains a parameter
10:17:12 <KragenSitaker> which the tiny .swf file interprets as a possibly relative url
10:17:17 <KragenSitaker> which it then uses to fetch a tiny xml file
10:17:32 <KragenSitaker> which xml file contains another parameter pointing to an enormous .swf file
10:17:42 <KragenSitaker> which the tiny .swf file then loads within itself
10:18:50 <KragenSitaker> the enormous .swf file is the one you want to wget, and generally you can guess its name by removing '_controller' from the name of the tiny .swf file
10:19:20 <KragenSitaker> e.g. http://yoz.com/ning-at-etech/ning_etech_controller.swf -> http://yoz.com/ning-at-etech/ning_etech.swf
10:20:06 <yoz> sorry, awake now
10:20:11 <yoz> it's getting rave reviews? where?
10:20:27 <KragenSitaker> random blogs
10:20:29 <KragenSitaker> sorry, thrashing now
10:20:41 <yoz> no probs
10:20:51 <yoz> want me to zip all the files up for you?
10:21:01 <yoz> or tar?
10:21:02 <KragenSitaker> oh, to make things worse, the .swf file generated by camtasia apparently doesn't play in swfdec 0.3.2
10:21:24 <KragenSitaker> no, i have the big file --- that's the only one i really need. other people might appreciate it though
10:21:37 <yoz> good point
10:21:56 <est> have you looked at xvidcap?
10:22:47 <KragenSitaker> not yet but now i will ;)
10:24:34 <yoz> KragenSitaker: being of shallow ego and much blog tracking, I would like to be pointed at said random blogs
10:24:54 <yoz> if you could be so kind
10:25:06 <KragenSitaker> yoz: um let me see if i can find them again
10:25:21 <yoz> much apprec'd
10:25:49 <KragenSitaker> http://www.dynamicobjects.com/d2r/archives/003344.html is the one i read
10:25:55 <yoz> ah
10:25:57 <yoz> well, he would
10:26:04 <yoz> given that I work with him :)
10:26:06 <yoz> but thank you
10:26:44 <KragenSitaker> http://us.peerpresence.com/blog/000765.html also
10:27:12 <KragenSitaker> jon udell called something you did an 'excellent screencast' but it wasn't the etech demo presumably: http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/2006/03/03.html#a1400
10:27:27 <yoz> no, neither is the previous one
10:27:33 <yoz> there's a 6-minuter
10:27:46 <yoz> I need to do some more of these
10:27:55 <KragenSitaker> heh
10:28:11 <yoz> if you need to do screencasts, I highly recommend camtasia
10:28:20 <yoz> *so* much better than all the alternatives I've tried
10:28:29 <yoz> but I've no idea if it runs under Wine - my guess is not
10:28:51 <KragenSitaker> i don't use proprietary software
10:28:57 <yoz> ah, ok
10:29:05 <KragenSitaker> well i buckled and installed flash player for a screencast
10:29:11 <yoz> :)
10:29:19 <KragenSitaker> but i'm hoping to atone for that sin, not compound it
10:30:33 <KragenSitaker> this post seems to imply that you were recording audio while you did the recorded actions
10:30:56 <KragenSitaker> which seems like it would make sense if you were spending ten minutes to make a ten minute screencast and couldn't afford to expand that to 20
10:31:01 <KragenSitaker> but not if you're spending 30 hours on it
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10:32:02 <yoz> well
10:32:04 <yoz> it does?
10:32:22 <yoz> I recorded actions first, then overlaid audio
10:32:24 <yoz> I should correct that
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10:57:32 <KragenSitaker> est have you looked at http://www.jokosher.org/?
10:57:46 <KragenSitaker> dunno how it compares with audacity
11:07:26 <est> hmm..server not found
11:10:05 <KragenSitaker> yeah, i had that problem a few times too; they may be having dns problems
11:12:31 <est> tis there for me now
11:13:33 <est> there's also http://ardour.org/
11:14:34 <est> the level meters for that originally used my gtk implementation of such
11:15:11 <KragenSitaker> is the ardour looks nice too
11:15:29 <KragenSitaker> ardour, jokosher, audacity; looks like sometime soon, open source audio editing will stop sucking
11:15:40 <KragenSitaker> or maybe it already has
11:16:30 <est> what sucks about audacity for you?
11:19:17 <KragenSitaker> oh, it has various little problems in its UI
11:19:48 <KragenSitaker> select a chunk of audio, zoom to selection, hit play; it plays through the selection which is fine
11:20:21 <KragenSitaker> but when it gets to the end, it evidently moves the cursor one pixel past the edge of the screen
11:20:37 <KragenSitaker> so it then scrolls so that the entire selection, except for one pixel, is off the left side
11:21:14 <KragenSitaker> there's no way to organize the LADSPA plugins, and actually the menus break rather badly once they get to be screen-height
11:21:41 <KragenSitaker> for example, if you click on a menubutton that brings up a menu that's the height of the screen, there are menu items placed on top of the menubutton ---
11:21:54 <KragenSitaker> since the menubutton is somewhere between the top and bottom of the screen
11:22:00 <twe> Monty is on the bottom.
11:22:03 <Monty> I reckon instututions + uncle = televised techroam.
11:22:04 <KragenSitaker> and the menu extends all the way from the top and bottom of the screen.
11:22:32 <KragenSitaker> which is fine as far as it goes. except that releasing the mouse pointer invokes whatever menu item happened to be over the menubutton (which depends on where on the screen the audacity window is)
11:22:44 <est> twe: yeah yeah..we know yer a top
11:22:45 <KragenSitaker> the FFT it uses for spectrum display is painfully slow
11:22:52 <twe> est: A is not more than we know.
11:23:24 <est> twe: spoken like a true randroid
11:23:42 <twe> est: True, i could snap photos of the point location, including the trailing parenthesis, for example), so if you like to do something undesired?
11:23:58 <KragenSitaker> pretty
11:24:05 <est> good :)
11:24:56 <est> KragenSitaker: yeah..ive run into such problems too
11:25:00 <KragenSitaker> there are a bunch of other very fiddly ui details like that that aren't quite right
11:25:21 <KragenSitaker> i think a lot of them are the result of using wxwindows.
11:25:35 <est> how so?
11:25:56 <KragenSitaker> well, i imagine that the menu behavior i just described is actually a bug in wxwindows, not audacity.
11:26:06 <KragenSitaker> furthermore, i suspect that it's a platform-specific bug.
11:26:37 <KragenSitaker> and i wouldn't be surprised if working around it on one platform (for example, by limiting the length of the menu) would pessimize the user experience on some other platform.
11:27:47 <est> wow..this level widget works under xdarwin
11:28:41 * est praise stability of gtk over the years
11:28:42 <KragenSitaker> excellent
11:31:59 <est> note that the sources contain a general widget for rgb drawing
11:32:53 <est> there's probably a standard way to do that now
11:33:02 <KragenSitaker> heh
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13:56:32 <Monty> lo eel
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15:08:03 <redmonk> swhack!
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16:59:25 <jcowan> Ittywhonk-be-whonk!
17:03:58 <Arnia> Hey jcowan
17:04:14 <jcowan> What ho, Arniakins.
17:04:16 madewokherd (n=urk@Client-128-118-128-9.mobility-bd.psu.edu) has joined #swhack
17:04:19 <redmonk> jcowan: interesting post about quin-whoever's paradox
17:04:22 <jcowan> Anything new?
17:04:28 <jcowan> redmonk: Thanks.
17:05:33 <redmonk> i'm surious if you see a difference (or how you would define the difference) between "believing" something and "believing in" something
17:05:40 <twe> How is it in you.
17:05:46 <bancus> What twe said.
17:06:01 <twe> Did sbp pick up the site is said to be very large. The corresponding file for vol. 1 Of the twe!
17:06:10 <jcowan> webchick: long, hard, and deep, preferably
17:06:10 libby (n=libby@83.217.105.98) has joined #swhack
17:06:17 <Arnia> redmonk: Metaphor?
17:06:25 <jcowan> oops, try that again:
17:06:25 <webchick> Er. Yes.
17:06:36 <jcowan> I meant to address twe, webchick.
17:06:45 <bancus> Believing samething means that you accept it to be true, believing in something carries that, but also has the connotation that one unconditionally expects it to go on being true
17:06:46 <twe> I meant to be a substitute for the same colour as the broadcast address.
17:06:46 <jcowan> Sorry for the unwanted wake-up.
17:07:10 <jcowan> (I typed "we<TAB>" instead of "twe<TAB>", probably
17:07:13 <jcowan> )
17:07:24 <webchick> lol :) ah.
17:07:26 <twe> Would be *slightly* less annoying if twe didn't say twe all the keybindings, and i still think jill should set up on the #swhack tab.
17:07:55 <jcowan> bancus: I'm only discussing belief in propositions here; I suspect but can't prove that all other kinds of belief can be recast as belief in propositions.
17:08:28 <jcowan> believing in Santa Claus is belief that Santa Claus exists and has (at least some of) the properties commonly attributed to him.
17:09:25 <bancus> ah
17:09:29 <Arnia> I reckon it is a structuring difference
17:09:31 * bancus bows to jcowan's superior expertise.
17:09:39 <jcowan> whereas believing John means you believe some utterance made by John, normally; it's elliptical.
17:09:53 <Arnia> "believe in" foregrounds the idea of situation as container
17:10:08 <jcowan> "Most beliefs are trivial and true." --Daniel Dennett, more or less
17:10:12 <bancus> jcowan: what about the "I believe in you" usage?
17:10:18 <jcowan> s/Most/Almost all
17:11:41 <jcowan> That's an interesting one, bancus
17:12:03 <jcowan> I'm tempted to say it unpacks to "I believe that you have the properties that I believe you to have", except that's obviously tautological.
17:12:16 <jcowan> So we must add "and the properties in question are good ones."
17:12:32 <jcowan> One does not say "I believe in you" to someone who turns out indeed to be, as you had believed, a crook and a liar.
17:12:42 <Arnia> I am undergoing the process of belief from within the situation that you, as an entity in my experience, define
17:15:13 <bancus> jcowan: one might
17:15:36 <bancus> Say you were in a situation such that your best interest lied with this person's ability to cheat others, you might say that.
17:15:45 <bancus> "I know you can cheat this guy. I believe in you."
17:15:49 <bancus> It would be odd, yes, but not impossible.
17:15:57 <jcowan> Yes, true, if your morality is different from common morality, then you may indeed.
17:16:11 <Arnia> That is just the ME-FIRST principle though
17:16:22 <Arnia> 'good' is always defined as closest to ME
17:16:56 <bancus> "Take care of number one." is how I heard it.
17:17:07 <Arnia> Not quite that
17:17:16 <bancus> Although I was confused at first, because I thought the guy was a christian, and wondered why you'd need to take care of jesus.
17:17:28 <jcowan> "The good old rule, the simple plan / That they should take who have the power / And they should keep who can."
17:17:51 <bancus> that is incredibly hard to parse
17:18:10 <Arnia> ME-FIRST basically describes the 'spatial' distribution of certain intangible concepts. GOOD is near, BAD is far etc
17:22:27 <jcowan> Ah. Thanks.
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17:22:42 <redmonk> interesting discussion - it seems that "believe in" may relate more to "put faith in..." "put trust in"
17:23:09 <redmonk> which must of course be based first on "believeing that" certain properties are true
17:33:46 * nsh disagrees
17:34:06 <redmonk> oh?
17:34:37 <Arnia> I disagree as well... on the basis that the approach being described relies on complex, near impossible to acquire symbolic inferencing
17:35:07 <Arnia> I'm going to tend towards the embodied, metaphoric semi-structuring instead
17:35:09 <redmonk> oh notw you're just getting all academic on me
17:35:27 <redmonk> (meaning i have no idea what you just said)
17:36:00 *** bear_errand is now known as bear
17:37:28 <Arnia> Oh, well what I mean is that all of the alternatives to the metaphoric approach thus far described required a large amount of information to be expressed in a slight change of construction ("believes" vs "believes in"). Worse, the accounts require complex inferencing (property transfer of 'good' properties) and finally there is no explanation for why the preposition 'in'
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17:44:10 <Arnia> Whey... killed the conversation
17:44:12 <Arnia> :/
17:45:56 <jcowan> I got caught up in another one.
17:48:14 <nsh> twe, what do you kill?
17:48:39 <twe> nsh: [Off] ie, statutory rape doesn't apply if the lines are being referred to men from the time to do with the prepaid credit non-credit card that she wanted to see you in the library too, and it was an append-next-kill.
17:49:10 <jcowan> Gack.
17:49:28 <Arnia> ...
17:49:35 <nsh> ?
17:49:39 <nsh> .swhack statutory rape
17:50:04 <bancus> heh
17:50:05 <phenny> nsh: No results for "statutory rape".
17:50:17 <bancus> Looks to me like it was [off]'d.
17:50:20 <nsh> aye
17:50:57 <nsh> btw, does loggy recognise [off] after nick[,:] ?
17:50:59 *** DrBacchus is now known as DrB_Lunch
17:51:07 <nsh> nsh: [off] testimonial
17:51:08 <bancus> I don't think so
17:51:18 <nsh> loggy, pointer
17:51:20 <nsh> loggy, pointer?
17:51:33 <jcowan> loggy is foggy today
17:51:36 <nsh> mm
17:51:39 <redmonk> loggy: pointer?
17:51:39 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2006-03-22#T17-51-39
17:52:10 <nsh> ah
17:52:16 * Arnia needs sleep
17:52:20 <Arnia> But I need food first
17:52:29 <Arnia> Dilemma!
17:52:40 <nsh> g0t dr1p?
17:52:45 * jcowan advises Arnia to impale himself on the food horn.
17:53:17 * bancus is just not gonna ask.
17:53:49 <Arnia> I'll be back in a bit... just heading across the road to the pub to get some food
17:56:57 <bancus> you have a pub across the road?
17:56:57 <bancus> awesome
18:00:56 * redmonk is jealous
18:01:07 <redmonk> jcowan: you're in the UK, right?
18:01:33 <redmonk> Arnia: you still there?
18:01:59 <redmonk> i'm trying to confirm the existence of something i had in a pub-like venue here in the states
18:02:41 <bancus> jcowan: is in the States, AIR
18:03:05 <bancus> and has only ever been in the UK when he crossed the border into NI on a trip to Ireland
18:03:09 <jcowan> redmonk, bancus: I live on a small island off the coast of North America, and politically I am part of the U.S.
18:03:14 <jcowan> s/coast/east coast
18:03:18 <redmonk> ah
18:03:23 <bancus> Really?
18:03:25 <bancus> Which island?
18:03:46 <redmonk> sbp: you around?
18:04:14 <redmonk> i need to confirm whether a cholesterol-bomb known as a "Scotch Egg" exists in the wild
18:04:54 <jcowan> bancus: Manhattan Island.
18:04:59 <bancus> heh
18:05:21 <jcowan> redmonk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_egg
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18:06:05 <redmonk> oh my god, it's real.
18:06:10 madewokherd has quit (No route to host)
18:06:51 <jcowan> Don't see why it should be more of a cholesterol bomb than a dish of egg and sausage generally.
18:07:42 <redmonk> well, I had them, made fresh, at a purportedly authentic brisitsh-style pub in virginia
18:08:03 <redmonk> egg wrapped in suasage and deep fried, it was... like heaven.
18:08:09 <redmonk> served with mustard.
18:08:44 <redmonk> served hot.
18:08:50 bjoern_ has quit ("Quit")
18:09:07 <redmonk> nice to know it wasn't merely a "gimick" by that particular establishment
18:09:10 <jcowan> bancus: a "dilemma" is figuratively a two-horned beast: you can grasp one horn (and take the consequences from the other), or grasp the other horn, or go between the horns (by finding a third alternative)
18:09:16 <twe> Ooh, is it a go.
18:11:43 <jcowan> STFU, twe
18:11:49 <twe> Twe twe make twe feel sad.
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18:28:25 *** jcowan changed the topic to: "<CSWookie> The movie is upside down. <CSWookie> Windows. --two consecutive but unrelated remarks on #scheme"
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18:29:50 <Monty> it's bitwize!
18:30:14 <bitwize> It's Monty!
18:30:17 <Monty> good to me what i imagine that stupid statement like you kill?
18:30:43 bitwize has parted #swhack ("*")
18:30:49 <jcowan> Welcome to #swhack, CSWookie. Everything you say here is being logged publicly, so kiss your political career goodbye.
18:30:56 <jcowan> More information at http://swhack.com.
18:31:19 * crschmidt cackles evilly.
18:31:52 <jcowan> #swhack has been called a lightweight channel with heavyweight users and middleweight bots and RANDOM CARNAGE!!
18:32:00 <jcowan> It is also the off-topic is on-topic channel.
18:32:04 * crschmidt carnages about randomly.
18:32:27 <CSWookie> So here is where I shgould whine about my taxes. :-)
18:32:48 <jcowan> Sure. We reserve the right to ignore you, of course. But at least there are no topic nazis.
18:33:15 <bancus> Although apparently if we get too graphic sexually, some people will become topic nazis.
18:33:24 * bancus glances around non-chalantly.
18:33:47 <CSWookie> Ah. A channel where people reserve the right to ignore me.
18:34:01 * Morbus returns.
18:34:05 <Morbus> who the fuck is cswookie?
18:34:17 <Morbus> <g>
18:34:38 <CSWookie> I hate channels where people act like they are so cool because they never ignore anyone, but are perfectly willing to tell everyone to "Chut up, Charita!"
18:34:52 <edsu> it's one of chewie's friends, who studied lisp
18:34:53 <bancus> Who's Charita?
18:34:55 <CSWookie> Morbus: Check my Ident.
18:35:02 <jcowan> That's just Morbus. You may find him humping your leg from time to time. Ignore it.
18:35:04 <Morbus> I hate people who are in here for five minutes and presume to think we're all stereotypes.
18:35:07 <CSWookie> Morbus: With the exception of a missing 'n', it has my name.
18:35:16 <jcowan> But Morbus, we *are* all stereotypes.
18:35:25 <jsled> heh.
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18:35:45 <jcowan> blammo
18:35:46 <edsu> morbus is dolby
18:35:52 <jcowan> B or C, edsu?
18:35:55 <Morbus> they call me SURROUND SOUND MOTHERFUCKA
18:36:13 <edsu> jcowan: i haven't figured that one out yet :)
18:36:16 <jcowan> See. A stereotype.
18:36:19 <Morbus> jesus, flying cards everywhere.
18:36:22 <Morbus> two in two days.
18:36:23 <Morbus> *cars
18:36:33 <Morbus> oh, wait, nevermind.
18:36:38 <Morbus> same story, repeated differently.
18:36:43 <jcowan> edsu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_noise_reduction_system
18:36:57 *** jsled is now known as hehbot
18:37:37 <edsu> definitely B
18:37:49 <Morbus> I'm a B system with C cups.
18:37:53 <edsu> thanks jcowan
18:38:20 <edsu> 'less effective noise reduction'
18:38:31 <edsu> that's the way i like my morbus
18:39:12 <jcowan> Morbus only wishes he had C cups.
18:39:30 * jcowan gets graphic about it.
18:39:32 <Morbus> Gotta upgrade the dribble cups.
18:39:43 * jcowan recycles the graphic as too vulgar to use.
18:40:38 * Arnia has a lightbulb moment
18:40:43 <Arnia> *ping*
18:41:07 <redmonk> Morbus: you ever think any more about that stuff?
18:41:21 <Morbus> yes, i took a good long and hard DUMP ON IT.
18:41:26 <redmonk> oh, good.
18:42:26 * jcowan pongs Arnia, then cleans up the pong and carries on.
18:42:32 <jcowan> What was the lightbulb moment?
18:43:06 <Arnia> I think I can explain why the trick of metaphor exists and how to implement a very fast common-sense understander (theoretically constant time on PDP hardware) that can parse and learn from natural language all in one fell swoop
18:43:33 <jcowan> You might want to take a bit more insulin and lie down for a while first, however.
18:43:42 <edsu> and hit the patent office
18:43:54 <Arnia> Meh. BT will own the patents
18:44:17 <Arnia> But yes, I think I can see a route through the morass
18:44:35 <edsu> you might get a nice plaque
18:45:29 <Arnia> I hope I'll get to change my title. That's what I'm looking for
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19:01:32 <jcowan> Change your title? To what?
19:01:41 <jcowan> Baron Geldart of Arnia?
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19:09:30 <Arnia> jcowan: I was hoping more a simple one like 'Dr'
19:09:43 <jcowan> Ah, there is that.
19:10:04 * jcowan thinks there are altogether too many people with doctorates in his family.
19:10:09 * CSWookie plans to go out and find some female, and bestow upon her the title of Mrs.
19:12:19 * bancus is techically a Rev.
19:12:27 <bancus> BBIAB, getting lunch
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19:19:32 <jilldaw> I don't think there is a doctorate in my family
19:19:46 <jilldaw> unless my sister finished her dissertation
19:24:41 <Arnia> I'd be the first for about four generations
19:24:51 <jilldaw> I'm of the "don't change your title when you get a PhD" camp
19:24:56 <jilldaw> but it's very tempting to do it anyway
19:25:03 <jilldaw> since I don't like "Miss" and a lot of people in the UK use it
19:25:15 <jilldaw> (use it for me, that is)
19:25:41 <jilldaw> of course, I'm not going to have to decide that for a long time if ever
19:33:04 <Arnia> On the other hand, the title does give some obvious sign of the work you've put in
19:34:11 schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
19:34:11 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's schepers!
19:35:10 <jilldaw> I'll never forget what work I've put in
19:35:18 <jilldaw> there's no danger of that!
19:35:35 <CSWookie> Monty: While there are all manner of lesser imps and demons, the Great Satan hisself is said to be red and scaley with cloven hooves and a bifurcated tail. And he carries a hayfork."
19:35:38 <Monty> took a c iojmplementation of getting the best for it)
19:36:23 <jilldaw> (and it's very likely that the master's degree will bring me to my senses and realize that a doctorate is not for me)
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21:05:55 <BigJibby> Monty, do you feal lonely without twe?
21:05:56 <Monty> STABBY.PY
21:09:06 <Ash> aww thanks Monty
21:09:11 <Monty> it's ucs-2 implementation (fixed) annotated #18148 with camtasia's output is presumably > U+FFFF?
21:13:57 <bjoern_> Monty on the astral planes?
21:13:59 <Monty> self.__self__.Phenny.pHeNnY.r3gi5t3r()
21:14:16 <bjoern_> PhennyHasBeenHackedByMonty.
21:14:17 <Monty> 27 000 / That stuff?
21:14:27 <jcowan> phenny: have you been hacked by Monty?
21:14:35 <Monty> lgpl is depends where are a discussion about my car to try that "believe in" foregrounds the GPL, but any reason to import MethodType as closest to sleep till 5am
21:18:37 jcowan has quit ("Bailing out")
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21:30:56 <Monty> Thank goodness, madewokherd` is back!
21:30:59 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
21:31:00 <Monty> documented groupware.
21:34:28 * BigJibby documents Monty
21:34:28 <Monty> shouldn't .encode('utf-8') give you do everything is foggy today you decided not logged! (is it?)
21:35:17 <BigJibby> Monty.encode('utf-666')
21:35:19 <Monty> driving hairbrush slaps fidgeting WordPad :(
21:35:32 <bjoern_> everybody is alike
21:35:44 <bjoern_> I am the same.
21:35:57 <bjoern_> Theres chaos inside me
21:36:21 <bjoern_> it is growING
21:36:29 <bjoern_> i want order
21:36:41 <bjoern_> corners made me feel /sad/
21:36:53 <bjoern_> no more |hollow| form
21:37:08 <bjoern_> Chaos Outside.
21:37:31 <bjoern_> Harmony within.
21:38:06 <bjoern_> .g scene of life by inapt static
21:38:09 <phenny> scene of life by inapt static : http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=18329
21:38:41 <bjoern_> underrated, I think.
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22:03:35 <Monty> bah, it's Moira_ again
22:03:49 <Moira_> sorry
22:03:51 <Moira_> trying to sort out dcc
22:03:55 DrBacchus has quit (Connection timed out)
22:03:55 <Moira_> it works as in correct ports are open
22:04:03 <Moira_> but some people I'm having probs with
22:04:09 BigJibby has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:04:10 <Moira_> it sees requests as coming from localhost
22:10:09 schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.gen.twtelecom.net) has joined #swhack
22:36:12 <sbp> boing
22:36:42 <bjoern_> da boing!
22:42:09 libby (n=libby@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
22:42:59 *** bear is now known as bear_afk
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22:54:28 <nsh> twe, twoing
22:54:45 <bjoern_> no twe :(
22:54:54 <sbp> what!
22:54:59 <sbp> phenny: ask crschmidt where twe went!
22:55:01 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when crschmidt is around.
22:58:34 <nsh> oh noes!
22:58:42 <nsh> Monty, console me!
22:58:47 <Monty> bsittler: but what's with python, but then encoding called a website I assumed you text his Macbook yet?
22:59:02 Morbus has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:59:04 <sbp> d'oh: "The baby, using fingers, turned my computer off unexpectedly and caused me to lose a lot of Jeep drawings." - Onstad
22:59:16 <nsh> lol
22:59:18 <jsled> Those are some intense drawings, too. :(
22:59:39 giovannit (n=Miranda@62.123.43.207) has joined #swhack
23:00:25 <sbp> yeah, that's so kick-ass
23:00:30 <sbp> this is probably the best thread evah
23:01:46 <nsh> urlitude?
23:04:03 <jsled> starts at http://www.achewood.com/?date=01112006
23:05:30 <sbp> heh, the fake nuts. I'd forgotten about that
23:06:57 madewokherd` has quit (No route to host)
23:07:00 <sbp> " 22 March. The chief librarian of Wilberforce University in Ohio, one of the oldest predominantly black universities in the United States, was puzzled to find a copy of Scriptores Reis Rustica (Writings about Country Life) printed in Bologna in 1496, while rummaging through some old magazines, reported the Harrisburg Patriot (PA) in 1986. The 300-page volume had been rebound using the original wooden covers. No-one could guess how it came to be there." -
23:11:00 * sbp installs Bon Echo
23:13:24 <sbp> sigh
23:13:28 <sbp> annoyances:
23:13:51 <sbp> * Places doesn't come up in the sidebar
23:14:02 <sbp> * Middle clicking on a tab group doesn't do anything. It used to open them all in tabs
23:14:20 <sbp> * The close buttons being on the tabs means you're more likely to accidentally close them
23:14:57 <sbp> * Nor can you close places with a repeated Ctrl+B
23:15:21 <bancus> I like close buttons on tabs.
23:15:28 <bancus> I use tab x for just that purpose.
23:15:57 <sbp> * It crashes when I try to switch between Options tabs
23:17:07 <sbp> * You can't run Firefox and Bon Echo at the same time
23:17:28 <bjoern_> not so bon echo, it seems
23:20:01 * est glurble
23:20:19 <sbp> * Tabs don't get focussed on by default when you middle click a link
23:20:33 <sbp> I'm not checking for others because it's too dangerous to start using it as a client already
23:20:39 <sbp> since there's no undoclosetab built-in
23:21:01 <bancus> you have strange ideas of danger
23:21:21 <bjoern_> the tab might include your looooong shiny new blog entry
23:23:37 <sbp> exactly. see http://esw.w3.org/topic/IntegrityIsJobOne
23:24:38 <bancus> but you might accidently hit ctrl-A delete :o
23:24:56 <bjoern_> you can undo that
23:25:00 <sbp> Ctrl+Z
23:25:20 <bancus> damn
23:25:37 <bancus> you might accidently hit Alt-F4 Enter!
23:25:52 <bjoern_> prompts
23:25:59 <bancus> hence the enter
23:26:16 <sbp> I have a session saving extension
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23:26:32 Moira_ (n=moira@tor/session/x-29ba07a4174d5a55) has joined #swhack
23:26:37 * bancus notes that when he wants to do some heavy text editing on a web site, he uses w3m anyway
23:26:40 <bjoern_> alt+f4 y might be a better sequence...
23:26:47 <bancus> sbp: and there's no tab-close undo extension?
23:26:51 <sbp> yeah...
23:27:09 <sbp> bancus: undoclosetab? for Firefox, yes. for Bon Echo, no
23:27:11 <bancus> w3m lets me use vim for editing, which is nice
23:27:56 <sbp> ...
23:28:24 <sbp> anyway. one good thing about Bon Echo: the icons are slightly, almost undetectably, better
23:28:50 <bjoern_> .gc Internet Explofox Navigator
23:28:53 <phenny> Internet Explofox Navigator: 0
23:28:54 <redmonk> i went back to 1.5
23:29:19 <bjoern_> fed up with the security patches?
23:29:31 <redmonk> the mac version of 2 had weird display bugs, and it bork my extensions
23:30:06 <sbp> .gc Internet Explofox Navigatera
23:30:09 <phenny> Internet Explofox Navigatera: 0
23:32:53 <bjoern_> .gc Explofox
23:32:56 <phenny> Explofox: 8
23:33:16 <est> .gc "ash behave"
23:33:19 <phenny> "ash behave": 99
23:33:25 <bjoern_> hmm Mozillasoft Firenet Explofox
23:33:31 <bjoern_> Interzilla Explofox
23:35:51 redmonk has quit ()
23:38:04 <Ash> WHO DARES SPEAK MY NAME
23:38:38 <CSWookie> WHO DARES MISREAD THE NECRONOMICON?
23:38:45 <bancus> At one point Kratos walks up a cyclops' chest with his blades, and then reaches into his eye socket to wrench his seeing organ free.
23:38:49 <bancus> heh
23:38:55 <bjoern_> WHO DARES SCREAMING IN #SWHACK?
23:50:32 <est> :O
23:57:54 iand (n=Miranda@cpc2-nthc3-0-0-cust770.nrth.cable.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
23:58:17 <nsh> iand, where are you?