Swhack! 6 April 2009
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00:52:04 <[bjoern]> .c 0x00401223 - 0x00401060
00:52:05 <phenny> 0x00401223 - 0x00401060 = 0x1C3
00:52:08 <[bjoern]> .c 0x00401223 - 0x00401060 in decimal
00:52:08 <phenny> 0x00401223 - 0x00401060 = 451
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04:30:18 <clsn> .rate xkcd
04:30:23 <phenny> "xkcd": 57.06% (1,030 rocks; 622 rules; 929 sucks; 314 blows)
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05:20:17 <bancus> .head doesxkcdsucktoday.com
05:20:18 <phenny> Can't connect to http://doesxkcdsucktoday.com
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05:32:47 <cre8radix> moin
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08:51:25 <sbp> yo
08:52:40 <_ulises> yo sbp
08:52:41 <Talliesin> Hey
09:10:33 <sbp> what up?
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10:06:15 <Monty2> yo leobard!
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10:39:09 <[bjoern]> remind me in 285 minutes to !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10:39:10 <Monty2> [bjoern]: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Mon Apr 06 16:24:07 BST 2009
10:39:38 <[bjoern]> remind me in 245 minutes to !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10:39:38 <Monty2> [bjoern]: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Mon Apr 06 15:44:35 BST 2009
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10:55:40 <[bjoern]> for food resources there is "edibles", for entertainment resources there is ...?
10:56:57 <_ulises> enjoyables?
10:57:16 <[bjoern]> notworx
10:57:51 <_ulises> entertaining-ables?
10:58:03 <[bjoern]> that's a lot worse
10:58:20 <_ulises> hrm
10:59:04 <[bjoern]> .gc sexsubstitutables
10:59:04 <phenny> sexsubstitutables: 0
11:06:06 <[bjoern]> .wik taylor hicks
11:06:07 <phenny> "Taylor Reuben Hicks (born October 7, 1976) is an American singer who achieved fame in 2006 as a contestant on the fifth season of American Idol, which he won later that year." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Hicks
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11:16:30 <Monty2> But what does chris2 have to do with the price of fish?
11:21:52 <[bjoern]> .gc funderthuck
11:21:53 <phenny> funderthuck: 9
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11:57:23 <[bjoern]> I'd like code for this mapping 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 -> 3 3 3 2 2 2 1
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12:09:42 <[bjoern]> hmm (x | (x - 1) | 3) gives me 3 3 3 7 7 7 15
12:37:40 <aspect> floor(1+(10-x)/3)
12:38:03 <[bjoern]> using few simple integer operations
12:38:31 <aspect> no integer division then?
12:38:51 <[bjoern]> divide by constant is okay
12:40:14 <aspect> as above, then, with suitable fenceposts if your div behaves unlike python's
12:40:18 <[bjoern]> 1+((1+(9-x))/3) would work
12:42:01 <[bjoern]> (((13-x))/3)
12:42:24 <aspect> even better
12:43:35 <[bjoern]> I guess I'll use this, thanks
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12:57:21 <[bjoern]> So I guess I'll change 2345678 -> 8675423 then I can just divide by three and have another nice property...
13:01:51 <aspect> what are you actually doing? :)
13:02:37 <[bjoern]> telling how many more bytes are needed to complete a char from the state number of the automaton
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13:17:44 <sbp> heh, I was just searching for some translation thing
13:17:50 <sbp> and found a page by thelsdj's father
13:26:11 <[bjoern]> any idea how to make graphviz render two graphs that differ only in edge labels about the same?
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13:34:43 <sbp> there should be an --enforce-sanity option for all programs
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13:45:37 <_ulises> on the programmer's behalf?
13:52:20 <[bjoern]> can't tell whether someone is listening to very loud, very bad music, or if that's actually noise from the construction workers
13:52:43 <[bjoern]> okay money is on "music"
13:52:43 <Monty2> It.
13:54:32 <[bjoern]> I believe they wish to have violence inflicted upon them
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14:44:44 <Monty2> [bjoern]: You asked me to remind you to !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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15:18:38 <clsn> MENTAL NOTE: when killing something twisted, kill -HUP `cat twistd.pid` is what you want and NOT kill -HUP `cat twistd.log`
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15:19:59 <_ulises> heh
15:24:14 <Monty2> [bjoern]: You asked me to remind you to !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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15:31:42 <sbp> clsn: if you used "cut -f 1 -d ' '" in place of cat...
15:31:50 <clsn> yeah, yeah....
15:31:54 <sbp> shame there isn't a short command for getting the first-word of a file
15:31:59 <sbp> because that would be handy
15:32:07 <sbp> "first"
15:34:42 <clsn> It would still take more letters to type than "cat"
15:34:49 <clsn> So I would probablyuse "cat" anyway.
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16:18:33 <nsh-> damn, i'd love to eat some dead animal right now
16:19:58 <nsh-> .ety parochail
16:19:58 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "parochail". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=parochail
16:20:12 <nsh-> .ety parochial
16:20:12 <phenny> "1393, from Anglo-Fr. parochiel (1292), from O.Fr. parochial, from L.L. parochialis 'of a parish' (c. 600), from parochia (see parish)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=parochial
16:20:53 <MoiraA> hi
16:23:11 <sbp> clsn: call it "c", perhaps
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16:27:20 <nsh-> afternoon MoiraA
16:27:24 <nsh-> what are you discussnao?
16:29:21 <nsh-> sbp, has again the arvillimiter punksulated all upons the floxens!?
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16:30:55 <nsh-> if helps. i colonfuse the afflecks threetime as before...?
16:38:11 <[bjoern]> I find it still funny that popularity of my software is inversly proportional to the amount of resources spent on it
16:45:37 <sbp> .w flox
16:45:38 <phenny> flox — noun: 1. Alternative capitalization of FLOX — verb: 1. (molecular biology) To sandwich a DNA sequence between two recombinase binding sequences such as "loxP"
16:51:55 <nsh-> damn, that was supposed to be "avrillimiter"
16:52:02 <nsh-> the limiter of arvility
16:52:10 <nsh-> silly typing
16:52:21 <nsh-> sbp, tell of some interesting
16:54:15 <sbp> too close to dinner to start a story
16:54:39 <nsh-> ok
16:54:45 <sbp> BUT
16:54:52 <nsh-> ..
16:54:54 <sbp> I could always siphon out some inventiwords
16:55:14 <nsh-> prozeet
16:55:42 <sbp> regifelimation - n. the condition of being regifelimated; one who is in a state of delerium due to an excess of dead pizza animals in the bloodstream
16:56:12 *** nsh- changed the topic to: "Swhack: the lithophiles were still indispensable; the heartrock could never be allowed to die."
16:56:52 <nsh-> pron. as: regimental felicity intimation?
16:58:31 <sbp> yeah!
16:58:53 <nsh-> ubensive :-)
17:00:43 <sbp> FOOD
17:01:26 <_ulises> do you really have dinnars at 6pm?
17:01:40 <nsh-> on the dibble
17:01:53 <nsh-> (dibble is an archaic form of "dot")
17:02:18 <_ulises> heh
17:06:50 <clsn> sbp, nsh-, etc: so you guys know about the big rare Jewish ritual coming up on Wednesday?
17:07:38 <nsh-> for some reason, i read that as: "so you guys know about the big rare jewish _mining_ ritual"
17:07:49 <clsn> That would be interesting.
17:07:50 <clsn> Too.
17:07:56 <nsh-> mining is cool
17:08:08 <nsh-> but i'm afraid i'll have to play my ignoramus card on this one
17:08:09 * Arnia grumbles about data mining
17:08:20 <clsn> There's a blessing said on the sun. Only *once in 28 years*. And it's Wednesday morning. Next time we say it will be 2037.
17:08:41 <nsh-> awesome
17:08:49 * clsn hasn't even checked if this site exists, but I bet it does....
17:09:02 <clsn> .title http://www.birkathachamah.com/
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17:09:07 <phenny> clsn: Birchas HaChama Is Coming April 8th 2009
17:09:58 <clsn> It's the Julian Calendar's 28-year cycle, applied to the supposed (i.e. Julian) equinox and Wednesday morning (when the sun and moon were created, according to Genesis).
17:10:36 <clsn> So every 28 years the sun is right back to the precise position it was relative to earth at creation. Well, if the calendar we're using were right, which it isn't.
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17:11:21 <clsn> (this of course brings up the question of why it's in the spring and not the fall, since the world was supposedly created on rosh hashanah in the fall. I forget the answers. obv there are differences of opinion as to when it was actually created)
17:11:43 <nsh-> hmmm
17:11:51 <nsh-> why 28 year cycle?
17:12:36 <nsh-> does the equinox only fall on a wednesday every 28 years?
17:12:51 <nsh-> (i'm sitting on the floor, and refuse to think mathematically while sitting on the floor)
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17:13:06 <Monty2> welcome, The_Pot
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17:15:23 <clsn> It's the Julian calendar's 28-year cycle. There's a leap year every 4 years, and 7 days in a week. So the cycles of dates→days of the week repeats itself every 28 years.
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17:21:44 <procto> clsn: hmm, I just did some research into it, and it made me realize that there is indeed a tradition of astrology with some judaic scholars
17:21:50 <procto> I hadn't known that
17:22:01 <clsn> Oh very much so! Astrology used to be considered a science, remember,.
17:22:07 <procto> right
17:22:15 <clsn> And an art; it shows up strongly in lots of Jewish poetry too.
17:22:15 <procto> I always had the impression that they'd be antithetical to each other
17:22:20 <procto> I know the rambam was a "
17:22:25 <procto> an "astronomer"
17:22:45 <procto> I got into an argument with my bar mitzvah melamed
17:22:54 <procto> when he claimed that the sun orbits the earth
17:23:04 <procto> and he knows so because the rambam said so
17:23:46 <procto> what I hadn't known is that jews dabbled with the "signs"
17:23:51 <clsn> Well, they ought to be antithetical; we refer to idolaters as "worshippers of stars and constellations"
17:24:27 <procto> specifically: "אמר אביי: כל כ"ח שנין והדר מחזור ונפלה תקופת ניסן בשבתאי באורתא דתלת נגהי ארבע"
17:24:29 <clsn> But the Jews were just as much enamored of astrology as everyone else. They 'knew' that the stars weren't gods, but still believed they had an influence on the world.
17:24:33 <procto> mentions the sign of saturn
17:24:47 <clsn> Yes. There's much more explicit mentions elsewhere.
17:24:49 <procto> I'll have to look further into that
17:25:02 <clsn> Much the same as the Christians, who also aren't allowed to worship the stars.
17:25:19 <clsn> There's some great liturgical poems that go through the whole zodiac.
17:25:33 <procto> and I'd never heard of birkat hachama because I'm only 21 :)
17:25:34 <clsn> .g אין מזל לישראל
17:25:35 <phenny> clsn: http://courses.jercol.macam.ac.il/62/halacha/hishtadlut/lesson12.html
17:25:42 <clsn> Heh... :)
17:25:54 <clsn> I wrote a blog entry a year or two ago mentioning that aphorism as well.
17:26:51 <clsn> And it's a significant point too. It isn't that astrology has no basis; the rabbis were quite willing to believe that gentile sorcerers had various powers granted by the Powers Beneath. Just that "our" God is the biggest one out there.
17:27:15 <clsn> So it isn't that astrology is invalid, according to that saying, but that it just doesn't apply *to Jews*.
17:27:37 <clsn> (of course, you can also read it as meaning "Jews have no luck," which is philosophical in its own way)
17:28:12 <procto> hehe
17:28:32 <procto> I always believed in the latter
17:28:45 <procto> or rather at least jews have no luck
17:28:47 <procto> maybe others too
17:28:59 <clsn> Tractate Rosh Hashanah speaks of rabbi (mumble) who had drawings of the moon in his room upstairs, so he could ask putative new-moon witnesses "did it look like THIS or like THAT" and so weed out certain mistaken witnesses.
17:29:00 <procto> so I made my own
17:29:26 <procto> well, with the new moon it's a while different matter, no?
17:29:45 <clsn> Not a whole different matter, but it is a lot simpler, yeah.
17:30:19 <clsn> Jewish calendars frequently showed the zodiac sign for each month, etc. And there are rabbinic interpretations based on the zodiac for the months etc.
17:30:43 <clsn> I have a scan from my Samaritan contact of a Samaritan calendar which also lists the Jewish names for the months (spelled differently!) and the zodiac signs.
17:31:19 * clsn can't remember the specifics, but there was one about Haman and the Jews and the fact that the sign of Adar is Pisces.
17:32:17 <clsn> Because fish are symbolic of blah blah blah, and they have the characteristic of blah blah... (I remember one of the characteristics: fish are immune to the Evil Eye. Ooookay).
17:33:17 <bancus> I thought astrology was an abomination?
17:34:03 <clsn> That's what procto is surprised at too. You would think so. And it probably ought to be. But remember that it used to be taken very seriously. It wasn't considered a spiritual or idolatrous matter; it was SCIENCE!
17:35:30 <clsn> It was thought of as no more idolatrous than astronomy, which has actually been praised by Maimonides as a worthy study, in that it leads you to understand man's insignificance and the grandeur of creation. Because after all, there wasn't a difference between astronomy and astrology.
17:36:26 <clsn> And everyone agrees on the importance of astronomy in calculating seasons and understanding day and night and time and all that stuff.
17:37:04 <clsn> (especially if you're Maimonides, living in the height of Arab civilization, when they were doing some serious study and discovery of such things)
17:39:37 <clsn> I recall hearing that the line שבח נותנים לו כל צבא מרום in the poem אל אדון which is recited on Sabbath mornings is supposed to be a reference to the planet by way of acronym.
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17:40:27 <procto> clsn: other thing is I'd imagine the lunar months to align not very well with the signs
17:40:34 <procto> worse than solar
17:40:48 <procto> I was born in iyar
17:41:11 <procto> which would sometimes be in taurus and sometimes gemini
17:41:19 <clsn> Probably not. But that was something everyone had to deal with, since everyone else also assumed that they had to be aligned. There are 12 constellations and 12 lunar months (roughly), how much more do you want???
17:41:47 <clsn> I was also born in Iyar; your birthday is coming up. I can never remember the date, only the day-number in the omer.
17:42:02 <clsn> 32 in the omer. I think it's Iyar 18 or something.
17:42:27 <procto> yeah, I'm iyar 20
17:42:45 <procto> mai 19th
17:42:48 <procto> may, even
17:42:50 <clsn> Ah. May 15.
17:43:14 <procto> lag baomer is iyar 18th
17:43:23 <procto> so 33
17:43:36 <procto> if you're 32 in the omer, you're on iyar 17th
17:46:23 <clsn> OK, that's it tghen.
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18:30:02 <deltab> “The President has been honoured in pastry.” — Channel 4 News on Turkey’s attitude to Obama
18:30:26 <deltab> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102767950
18:31:14 <deltab> what the? http://m1.2mdn.net/viewad/1743938/300x250-SaveProstates_vB_JuiceComic.jpg
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18:35:51 <Monty2> hi cre8radix
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19:26:47 <Monty2> But what does MorbusIff have to do with the price of fish?
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19:47:26 <cre8radix> well... he's a pirate, Monty2!
19:47:30 <Monty2> erroneous Euclidian dogshit implements playing relatives and Iomega nutritive whale.
19:47:49 <cre8radix> :D
19:48:05 <[bjoern]> mmm nutritive whale
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20:02:07 <[bjoern]> "MediaDefender Buys MediaSentry For $136,000"
20:07:26 <[bjoern]> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combining_Cyrillic_Millions
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21:19:53 <Monty2> yo mahound!
21:20:06 <mahound> yo Monty2
21:20:08 <Monty2> According to me, rope moves doubtful tossing.
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21:26:16 <nsh-> wouldn't it just be really unfortunate, from a race-relations point of view, if obama did actually turn out to be the antichrist?
21:26:49 <nsh-> i've been spending a quite disproportionate amount of time thinking about this lately
21:27:00 <nsh-> (that is, the last 30 seconds or so)
21:29:13 <MoiraA> lol
21:29:53 <clsn> I still can't understand why people who believe Obama was the antichrist wouldn't vote for him.
21:30:20 <clsn> If I were Christian, and really believed he was the antichrist, I would not only vote for him, I would actively campaign HEAVILY.
21:31:13 <clsn> It astonishes me that people who believed he was the antichrist opposed his election. What, you want to DELAY the Second Coming? Gee, Jesus, we would love it if you would save us and bring about God's Kingdom on Earth, but not this year, mmkay?
21:31:26 <nsh-> well
21:31:41 <nsh-> you might not be quite ready to repent your adultury for another four years
21:31:42 <nsh-> for instance
21:32:08 <clsn> See? Exactly that. We'd love to be saved, but not just now, there's a baseball game on.
21:32:22 <clsn> Or St Augustines prayer, "Lord, help me to be pure... but not yet!"
21:32:52 <nsh-> one has to schedule the eschaton just like any other major life event
21:33:07 <bancus> The Tivo Syndrome.
21:33:18 <bancus> "I want it, but on my terms. Let me record it and play it back later."
21:33:20 <clsn> And these are the same people who claim to be ready for God at any moment.
21:33:34 <bancus> "In case of rapture, this vehicle will be unmanned."
21:33:44 <bancus> That shit always struck me as really really wrong.
21:34:01 <bancus> How dare you assume that you're so fucking holy that there's no chance that you won't go to heaven.
21:34:05 <clsn> I'm not even really kidding, I am honestly puzzled by it.
21:34:07 <[bjoern]> http://the1031project.com/
21:34:23 <clsn> Is that the rapture dead-man's switch thing?
21:34:25 <bancus> Hubris of the worst sort.
21:34:32 <bancus> It's a license plate holder.
21:34:35 <bancus> I see it about once a month.
21:34:38 <bancus> Or something like it.
21:34:56 <clsn> I always, or at least originally, thought that the line was a joke on literary style.
21:34:56 <bancus> Another one that really scares me is "Know Jesus, Know Peace. No Jesus, No Peace."
21:35:06 <bancus> It sounds like a fundamentalist terrorist threat, to me.
21:35:17 <clsn> Mainly because I didn't know what Rapture meant in a religious sense at the time.
21:35:38 <[bjoern]> .gc rapeture
21:35:38 <phenny> rapeture: 1,040
21:35:45 <bancus> "No Allah, No Peace"
21:35:51 <bancus> I mean, come on.
21:36:05 <nsh-> clsn: you're making the elementary mistake of confusing believers with understanders
21:36:13 <bancus> (Actually, it makes more sense for Muslims, given the whole islam being peace/servitude thing.)
21:36:43 <clsn> Then what the hell do they believe?? That the Bible is true but not the part that says you have to elect the antichrist before Jesus'll come back? *shrug*
21:37:52 <nsh-> it's freudian projection
21:37:55 <nsh-> because you think about things
21:38:00 <nsh-> you imagine that other people do the same
21:38:11 <clsn> Yeah, something must be wrong with me...
21:38:45 <nsh-> people do not think, and when they do, it's generally so alien to how one might imagine they'd think that it may as well be burping
21:38:58 <clsn> I guess.
21:39:51 <nsh-> but the idea is interesting
21:40:05 <nsh-> i wonder if there have been any guides on how to act during the end times
21:40:13 <nsh-> except the crappy novelisations
21:40:37 <nsh-> actual theological conduct manuals for the eschaton
21:40:56 <nsh-> (trying to remember what the pious do in revelations)
21:41:05 <nsh-> (except get pwnt a lot)
21:41:11 <clsn> Googling for if obama is the antichrist, should we vote for him? there are various articles on the subject.
21:41:32 <clsn> The websites that discuss such things also crack me up.
21:41:54 <nsh-> .title http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081003175756AAHysL3
21:41:55 <nsh-> aye
21:41:57 <phenny> nsh-: Should Christians vote for Obama? - Yahoo! Answers
21:42:25 <clsn> ...and then the God will bring down the antichrist... Satan will sure be surprised.... What?? You don't tyhink Satan read the script also?? Probably on this very website!
21:43:27 <nsh-> mmm
21:43:33 <bancus> But only God is omniscient.
21:43:40 <bancus> And isn't Satan supposed to be locked in a pit or something?
21:43:41 <Monty2> tis a gift shop does not sure ebay staff shared the middle and run it tghen.
21:43:42 <nsh-> i don't know
21:43:47 <bancus> Or is that post-eschaton?
21:43:58 <nsh-> satan isn't empittinated yet
21:44:16 <nsh-> that's after some girt-big showdown
21:44:16 <clsn> Only God is omniscient, yes, but ANYone can read what he FUCKING WROTE DOWN...
21:44:20 <[bjoern]> You sure? haven't seen d8uv around in a while.
21:44:26 <nsh-> hrmmm
21:44:28 <nsh-> good point
21:44:49 <MoiraA> bancus, satan is only locked in a pit after armageddon
21:44:52 <clsn> And you can bet Satan would do SERIOUS web-surfing.
21:45:01 <bancus> clsn: Can Satan? Is the bible available in hell?
21:45:41 <clsn> Doesn't Satan have plenty of Earth-bound servants reporting to him? If Satan can't even get a copy of the Bible where he lives, how are we supposed to take him seriously?
21:46:11 <[bjoern]> Well in life he's not much of a bother.
21:46:13 <nsh-> man, they should really get satan's powers delineated at the very least
21:46:27 <nsh-> theology would be much better if DC/Marvel were in charge
21:46:35 <nsh-> in fact...
21:46:39 <MoiraA> Satan has a lot of powers
21:46:41 <clsn> Oh, Satan is supposed to be ALL OVER the place in life.
21:46:45 <MoiraA> it isn't god who rules our world
21:46:49 <procto> would suck if Image was in charge
21:47:04 <procto> freaking Spawniverse shit
21:47:40 <nsh-> i think if you view satan as a semi-autonomous schizoid subpersonality of jahweh
21:47:41 <MoiraA> clsn sure
21:47:43 <nsh-> then it all makes far more sense
21:47:57 <MoiraA> satan's greatest trick is to pretend to the world, that he doesn't exist
21:48:13 <nsh-> wrong, that was before he perfected the 900 and taught it to tony hawks
21:48:23 <clsn> nsh-: Judaism, AFAIK, views Satan as God's prosecuting attorney. He isn't EVIL. It's his JOB to accuse people.
21:48:24 <procto> no rabbi I've ever spoken to discussed "satan"
21:48:29 <clsn> The word "Satan" means "accuser"
21:48:30 <procto> "yetzer harah" is much more popular
21:48:36 <clsn> Satan DOES occur in the OT.
21:48:48 <clsn> MoiraA: That's a quote from somewhere. But I don't remember where.
21:48:51 <nsh-> clsn, hmm, that's sensible
21:49:09 <bancus> Does the name Lucifer?
21:49:13 <bancus> Or a hebrew version?
21:49:24 <clsn> Otherwise you wind up with Manicheism. Good god and Evil god.
21:49:28 <MoiraA> me perhaps?
21:49:33 <MoiraA> I'm always saying it
21:49:33 <Monty2> make a spoof? http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/
21:49:43 <bancus> Affirmative.
21:50:04 <procto> clsn: where is satan other than in Job?
21:50:09 <clsn> bancus: I'm not sure where "lucifer" comes from. I *think* it's from a verse where it translates the word "heilel" which I think is a hapax.
21:50:13 <[bjoern]> .gc pomo
21:50:14 <phenny> pomo: 2,500,000
21:50:15 <clsn> procto: Hosea. Sec.
21:50:29 <bancus> No "bearer of light" or "morning star"?
21:50:51 * bancus thought it amusing when he saw a Christian apartment complex called "Morningstar Apartments".
21:51:52 <clsn> Oops. Zech. 3:1
21:52:41 * nsh- still thinking about the judicial model of theurgy
21:52:49 <procto> clsn: yes, it's from isaih, he's refered to as "ben shachar"
21:53:04 <clsn> Oh, he is. OK, I didn't know that quote.
21:53:15 <clsn> Isa. 14:12
21:53:28 <clsn> It's the verse I was trying to remember too.
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21:53:44 <procto> all these various quotes are collated to refer to an evil being very apocryphally
21:54:01 <clsn> Yes. It is NOT at all obvious from the text.
21:54:10 <clsn> Well, Satan in Zecharia and Job is.
21:54:31 <procto> from what I know, manicheism and zoroastrianism are the main influences
21:54:40 <procto> in the creation of such mythology
21:55:12 <procto> I mean, that quote from Zecharia basically means roughly
21:55:23 <clsn> The verb from the root Satan occurs in Numbers 22, where it talks about the angel hassling balaam.
21:55:31 <procto> that god sent a messenger and a solicitor
21:55:51 <clsn> Yeah, the Zecharia is very clearly an advocate, or an accusing advocate.
21:55:59 <procto> yeah
21:56:01 <nsh-> .ety procurer
21:56:02 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "procurer". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=procurer
21:56:15 <bancus> .ety procure
21:56:16 <phenny> "c.1290, 'bring about, cause, effect,' from O.Fr. procurer (13c.), from L.L. procurare 'to take for, take care of,' in L., 'manage, take care of,' from pro- 'in behalf of' + curare 'care for.' Main modern sense is via 'taking pains to get' (1297)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=procure
21:56:30 <nsh-> .wik Chief procurer
21:56:32 <phenny> "Kumaran Pathmanadan (also known as Shanmugam Kumaran Tharmalingam or simply KP; last name also spelt as Padmanadan or Pathmanaban; born April 6, 1955[1]|) was the chief procurer of arms for the rebel Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (the Tamil Tigers), a Sri Lankan [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumaran_Pathmanadan
21:56:45 <nsh-> anyway, french for king's attorney
21:56:49 * clsn is paging through the consonants of the Bible looking for שטן (well, in transliteration)
21:57:06 <clsn> 1Sam 29:4...
21:57:14 <procto> you mean procurator?
21:57:35 <nsh-> mm, perhaps
21:57:43 <clsn> 2Sam 19:23
21:57:44 <procto> I think that fits best
21:57:55 <procto> .wik Public Procurator
21:57:55 <nsh-> (i'm basing my knowledge on having recently read the count of monte cristo)
21:57:56 <phenny> "A public procurator is an officer of a state charged with both the investigation and prosecution of crime." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Procurator
21:58:08 <bancus> I wonder why Spotlight has gotten so slow.
21:58:15 <clsn> 1Kgs 5:18. Also a ref to "something bad"
21:58:39 <clsn> 1Kgs 11:14 et seq.
21:58:54 <nsh-> Procureur du Roi.
21:59:15 * clsn read the Zecharia quote in synagogue as a haftorah, which is why I knew it was there.
21:59:53 <nsh-> yah, that one then
22:00:17 <clsn> Psalms 38:21... 71:13... 109:4-20...
22:00:43 <procto> pslams is so unreliable...
22:00:52 <procto> everything is so intensly allegorical...
22:01:04 <clsn> 1Chr 21:1
22:01:14 <clsn> Oh, yeah, Psalms is all poetry.
22:02:34 <procto> clsn: I don't get that chapter in chronicles
22:02:40 <procto> why is a census such a sin?
22:02:51 <clsn> *shrug* I dunno, I was just grepping. I never even read it.
22:02:55 <nsh-> census?
22:02:55 <procto> hehe
22:03:03 <procto> it's basically "satan made david take a census"
22:03:12 <nsh-> hrm
22:03:14 <procto> david makes a dude do it, the dude does, except for levi and binyamin
22:03:24 <procto> god gets angry and does bad things to israel
22:03:25 <clsn> Go read Rashi.
22:03:28 <procto> david repents
22:03:42 <procto> clsn: where's a good place online?
22:04:06 <clsn> Uuuuuh... I dunno, is there a place online with a machine-readable Rashi? Might be able to find a scan of it someplace, but that's a pain.
22:04:35 <procto> I'm not at home or I'd dig out my bibles
22:04:40 <clsn> Let's see if Google knows.
22:04:58 <procto> there are some decent multi-version concordance sites
22:04:58 <clsn> I am home, but I would have to get up. Or turn around and find scans.
22:05:07 <procto> but I haven't seen ones that incorporate commentary
22:05:10 <procto> I think chabad's does
22:05:11 <procto> I'll look
22:05:30 <nsh-> [[[
22:05:31 <nsh-> 2And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
22:05:31 <nsh-> 3And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?
22:05:33 <nsh-> ]]]
22:05:38 <nsh-> this makes no sense to me at all?
22:05:40 <nsh-> s/?//
22:05:54 <clsn> Yeah, I'm looking at http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm
22:06:07 <procto> nsh-: don't worry, we are on it :>
22:06:45 <nsh-> good
22:06:45 <clsn> Hrm. Both the text and the rashi are in translation. And I'm not sure they are answering the question./
22:07:42 <MoiraA> nsh: you can't expect to instantly understand parts of the bible without studying it as a whole
22:07:57 <nsh-> [[[
22:07:59 <nsh-> In the act of taking the census of a people, there is not only no evil, but much utility. But numbering Israel--that people who were to become as the stars for multitude, implying a distrust of the divine promise, was a sin; and though it had been done with impunity in the time of Moses, at that enumeration each of the people had contributed "half a shekel towards the building of the tabernacle," that there might be no plague amo
22:07:59 <Monty2> ? or Norman French than an art; it or an updated the classics?
22:08:04 <nsh-> ]]] --http://devel.searchgodsword.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=1ch&chapter=021
22:08:05 <nsh-> so
22:08:10 <clsn> I do think that I've seen counting Israel without God's command is seen as a bad thing elsewhere.
22:08:22 <nsh-> it's ok to take a census for tax purposes, as long as the g-man gets a kickback
22:08:29 <clsn> Yeah, that's why they say they took the census.
22:08:33 <clsn> In fact, the custom remains:
22:09:03 <MoiraA> it certainly does clsn
22:09:04 <clsn> It is a Jewish "superstition" not to count people. I know people who count persons as "not-one, not-two, not-three", though that's a cheap way out,.
22:09:15 <nsh-> heh
22:09:26 <clsn> The usual way to count people to see if you have 10 men for a quorum is to use a verse with 10 words in it.
22:09:35 <procto> hm interesting
22:09:40 <procto> I hadn't known that before
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22:09:49 <procto> I did know an aversion to counting people
22:09:57 <procto> but I always assumed that stemmed from auschwitz
22:09:58 <clsn> (Psalms 28:9)
22:10:27 <MoiraA> I would call that still counting
22:10:47 <clsn> the not-one, not-two, yeah, definitely should still be counting. It's a weak attempt to get around it.
22:11:01 <nsh-> the verse thing is at least a little better
22:11:20 <clsn> Yeah, that's the usual way I've seen it done when counting for a quorum.
22:11:27 <procto> jews love clever ways to get out of things though
22:11:33 <procto> like eruv
22:11:40 * nsh- smiles
22:11:54 <clsn> Eruv is my favorite. :) I wrote a node on everything2 about 'em.
22:11:58 <procto> I guess pretty much everywhere in israel is within an eruv
22:12:05 <procto> so I never even knew about it
22:12:08 <procto> until I moved to the US
22:12:18 <procto> and I'm still slightly flabbergasted
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22:13:25 <nsh-> heh
22:14:33 <nsh-> it had never occurred to me before that judaism is actually the story of execution of a Seldon plan for the creation of jurisprudence
22:15:03 <clsn> Uuuuuuh.... OK, I can see that.
22:15:34 <nsh-> Moses the psychohistorian
22:15:35 <procto> there's def an eruv around the town I live here
22:15:38 <procto> Jewton, I mean, Newton.
22:16:20 <clsn> Eruv leads into a joke I heard that you positively have to be Jewish and observant (or at least know observant people) to get.
22:16:28 <procto> http://bostoneruv.org/bound.htm
22:16:29 <procto> nice
22:16:36 <procto> there's a google map
22:16:39 <procto> of my local eruv
22:17:02 <procto> my house is just barely inside it
22:18:30 <procto> "...Sidewalks along these streets must be very carefully walked..."
22:18:32 <procto> really?
22:18:47 <clsn> Well, yeah, if you're on the wrong side of the fence...
22:19:03 <nsh-> psychologically, clsn, when i read your e2 node about eruv, i feel a mixture of admiiration for the hack and the familiar sympathetic-pain of watching people make their lives difficult unnecessarily
22:19:08 <nsh-> it's a strange quale
22:19:28 <clsn> Well, making lives difficult is par for the course for us.
22:19:41 <nsh-> quite
22:21:23 <nsh-> hrmm
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23:35:31 <nsh-> .ety pernicious
23:35:31 <phenny> "1521, from M.Fr. pernicios (13c., Fr. pernicieux), from L. perniciosus 'destructive,' from pernicies 'destruction, death, ruin,' from per- 'completely' + necis 'violent death, murder,' related to necare 'to kill,' nocere 'to hurt, injure, harm,' noxa 'harm, injury' [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=pernicious
23:35:42 <nsh-> .ety perfidy
23:35:42 <phenny> "1592, from M.Fr. perfidie, from L. perfidia 'falsehood, treachery,' from perfidus 'faithless,' from phrase per fidem decipere 'to deceive through trustingness,' from per 'through' (see per) + fidem, acc. of fides 'faith' (see faith)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=perfidy
23:36:25 <nsh-> why is there no etymological phylogenics or cladistics?
23:36:27 <nsh-> maybe there is
23:38:23 <nsh-> apparantly not
23:38:36 <nsh-> JUST MAKE ME A FUCKING PHYLOGENETIC TREE OF WORDS
23:38:41 <nsh-> HOW HARD CAN IT BE, JESUS
23:39:32 <nsh-> the biologists are fucking giving around in the shitting earth for fragments of dna from billion-year-old fossils
23:39:55 <nsh-> and you lazy fucking linguists can't be arsed to grep about a bit in literature
23:40:05 * nsh- shakes head disdainfully
23:40:15 <nsh-> s/giving/digging/