Swhack! 2 May 2009
00:01:15 <kpreid> Arnia
00:13:14 <[bjoern]> .gc "SAMSUNG-SGH-E250/1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 UP.Browser/6.2.3.3.c.1.101 (GUI) MMP/2.0 (compatible; Googlebot-Mobile/2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html)"
00:13:15 <phenny> "SAMSUNG-SGH-E250/1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 UP.Browser/6.2.3.3.c.1.101 (GUI) MMP/2.0 (compatible; Googlebot-Mobile/2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html)": 1
00:22:52 <MoiraA> deltab, my comment?
00:23:12 <MoiraA> I just mean everything had to be written, coded in vba
00:23:28 <MoiraA> unless it was specific to excel or word etc
00:23:51 <MoiraA> vb you just click on something you want on your form, all the background coding is already done for you
00:25:20 <deltab> I vaguely remember a control toolbar in Word or Excel
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00:36:27 <MoiraA> ok ok ;)
00:36:35 <MoiraA> in Word yeah - but VBA?
00:43:13 <deltab> VBA's what you use to script those, right?
00:45:09 <MoiraA> yes
00:45:22 <MoiraA> but you wouldn't script what was already there in Word for instance
00:45:42 <MoiraA> I just know that I've had to do more code writing in vba than in .NET
00:45:58 <MoiraA> generally you don't just click or drag an object onto a form
00:46:05 <MoiraA> you don't even have a form by default
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05:26:05 <[bjoern]> "Encoding is the process of transforming a set of Unicode characters into a sequence of bytes. Decoding is the process of transforming a sequence of encoded bytes into a set of Unicode characters." - MSDN
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05:30:26 <cre8radix> hey:zen
05:30:26 <phenny> cre8radix: 01 May 22:03Z <[bjoern]> tell cre8radix http://asta-viadrina.de/index.php?nn=1&id=127
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05:59:15 <cre8radix> phenny: tell [bjoern] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4978Fwd61SA
05:59:16 <phenny> cre8radix: I'll pass that on when [bjoern] is around.
05:59:46 <cre8radix> starts in german but the presentation is in english
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06:04:36 <[bjoern]> sounds gay
06:04:36 <phenny> [bjoern]: 05:59Z <cre8radix> tell [bjoern] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4978Fwd61SA
06:04:45 <[bjoern]> video quality too bad to tell whether speaker is actually female
06:05:37 <cre8radix> heh
06:05:47 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users
06:05:47 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
06:06:16 <cre8radix> [bjoern]: you're gonna love the end
06:06:46 <[bjoern]> Too late in the day to stand all the wackeln.
06:07:04 <[bjoern]> May try again later
06:07:30 <[bjoern]> Although I did see a "Web 2.0" slide, which is a general turnoff for me...
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06:09:25 <cre8radix> so it is for "them"
06:09:26 <cre8radix> :D
06:09:32 <cre8radix> nevermind
06:09:46 <cre8radix> just try to shake yer head with the screen
06:09:52 <[bjoern]> the adplus noscript thing is hilarious
06:10:05 <[bjoern]> I don't want to spill the beer!
06:11:14 <cre8radix> where you at atm?
06:11:35 <cre8radix> http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-42082.html
06:11:37 <[bjoern]> Sachsen-Anhalt, as always.
06:11:57 <[bjoern]> I see there's a party in Berlin
06:11:57 <cre8radix> saxxony hold on!
06:12:01 <cre8radix> :)
06:12:37 <[bjoern]> not sure why this http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1510470,00.jpg makes me think of robocop
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06:13:26 <[bjoern]> stylish http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1510490,00.jpg
06:16:16 <cre8radix> yes
06:16:20 <cre8radix> much better now
06:16:37 <cre8radix> guess they're gonna re:grey it
06:17:41 <cre8radix> [bjoern]: at operation walküre http://www.tikonline.de/video/detail.php?nr=44586&rubric=Videosection
06:17:44 <[bjoern]> On that see http://despair.com/more.html
06:18:26 <[bjoern]> .wik Operation Walküre
06:18:27 <phenny> "Operation Valkyrie (Unternehmen Walküre) was an emergency 'Continuity-of-Government' operations plan developed for the Territorial Reserve Army of the Germany (Wehrmacht Heer) to execute and implement should, for whatever reason, there come to be a general breakdown [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Walküre
06:18:37 <[bjoern]> right
06:19:02 <[bjoern]> Er hat kein Möhrchen, scheint mir.
06:21:07 <cre8radix> nice
06:21:17 <cre8radix> vid
06:25:23 <[bjoern]> Aufklärungsfilm wie die Welt wäre, wenn der eigene Körper LSD ausscheidet...
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07:30:33 *** [bjoern] changed the topic to: "Most people do not understand the finer points of subtlety."
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08:59:12 <sbp> yo
08:59:13 <phenny> sbp: 06:05Z <[bjoern]> tell sbp http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users
08:59:20 <[bjoern]> nuyo
09:05:23 <[bjoern]> Monty: kick in the butt
09:05:42 <[bjoern]> Monty: reemerge in under 48 hours.
09:09:25 <[bjoern]> Prepare for my disappearation.
09:09:27 <sbp> hehe
09:09:33 <sbp> where are you disapperating to?
09:10:02 <[bjoern]> I read it's unhealthy to stay up past midday.
09:10:27 <sbp> are there any healthy things?
09:11:16 <[bjoern]> Staying away from radiation of some thermonuclear celestial body is more healthy than not, in many circumstances.
09:11:25 <[bjoern]> So, relatively speaking, there just might be.
09:12:44 <[bjoern]> Generally most likely life is unhealthy though, inevitably, considering life is a mere progression to death.
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09:13:38 <[bjoern]> Thinking about cleaning my Lüfter later, and maybe renew the Wäremeleitpaste, which I purchased last time we talked about it.
09:14:07 <[bjoern]> Chances are I'll kill my cpu, but then that'd be a first
09:14:33 <[bjoern]> Also thinking about not doing it and procastinating isntead.
09:15:26 <[bjoern]> This is your one time limited time opportunity to bid me l8r.
09:26:23 <sbp> kk. l8r!
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12:13:00 <sbp> danopia: hey, welcome to Swhack
12:13:22 <danopia> i was here until my DSL acted up, lol
12:13:32 <danopia> MoiraA invited me
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12:13:50 <danopia> bye clone
12:14:03 <sbp> danopia: did she tell you much about us?
12:14:11 <sbp> danopia: please read http://swhack.com/guide either way
12:14:18 <sbp> will get you up to speed
12:14:20 <danopia> <MoiraA> this is the home of a lot of good programmers so you may like it
12:14:22 <danopia> that was abuot it
12:14:25 <sbp> or rather, it's intended to
12:14:58 <danopia> your unicode is messed up
12:15:04 <danopia> "it’s"
12:15:11 <sbp> .head http://swhack.com/guide
12:15:12 <phenny> sbp: 200, text/html, 2008-10-06 12:46:29 UTC, 8120 bytes
12:16:32 <sbp> .head http://swhack.com/guide
12:16:33 <phenny> sbp: 200, text/html, utf-8, 2008-10-06 12:46:29 UTC, 8120 bytes
12:16:38 <sbp> danopia: fixed, thanks
12:16:41 <danopia> thanks
12:16:59 <danopia> who wrote the bot?
12:17:17 <sbp> phenny? me
12:17:37 <danopia> i would've replaced 200 with status 200 or status ok
12:17:42 <danopia> or someting like that
12:17:51 <danopia> which language is it in?
12:17:55 <sbp> nah, we know the codes
12:17:58 <sbp> python
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12:19:42 <danopia> Swhack does not have a drinks fountain.
12:19:43 <danopia> :(
12:20:10 <sbp> and Monty dug up the proposed site of one
12:20:21 <sbp> so now we don't know where that was supposed to be
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12:23:51 <sbp> hmm, perhaps I should make Lester barf out the guide
12:23:58 <sbp> might as well put him to some use
12:23:59 <danopia> The best thing about Swhack is that our topics are actually topics, and that this girl makes me wish that I were a man.
12:24:00 <danopia> 404
12:24:06 <sbp> really? aw man
12:24:17 <sbp> oh, it was transposed to photos.cx. I see
12:24:26 <sbp> "this photo" is broken in the same way
12:24:30 <sbp> let's see, then...
12:26:39 <sbp> okay, fixed the second link. the first is going to be harder
12:27:21 <danopia> why?
12:27:51 <sbp> because it's not in the web archive, and I can't be arsed to hunt for it
12:28:03 <sbp> probably would be easier to replace it with something even funnier
12:28:06 <danopia> wayback?
12:28:07 <danopia> lol
12:28:08 <sbp> yeah
12:28:18 <danopia> wayback is alrways slow and buggy...
12:28:31 <danopia> like, it'll tell me
12:28:40 <danopia> "We know hte file exists, but can't find it."
12:28:51 <danopia> "Connection to the storage server timed out"
12:28:53 <danopia> etc
12:29:31 <danopia> is wayback running off the new datacenter now?
12:31:03 <sbp> this is the closest thing I've found to a funny replacement:
12:31:04 <sbp> http://www.knowyourgut.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/0902-banana-woman1.jpg
12:33:53 <sbp> oh, this is perfect:
12:33:54 <sbp> http://www.thespoiler.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sexy-tennis-bethanie-mattek.jpg
12:35:31 <sbp> fixed. thanks again
12:36:22 <sbp> dunno what datacentre wayback is running off of
12:44:57 <danopia> they got a new one recently
12:45:20 <danopia> grr. my dad is talking abuot tuneranger to someone who just got a second ipod for his wife
12:45:33 <danopia> it annoys me because it reminds me of how stupidly iTunes is coded
12:45:56 <danopia> if i had an iPod, i would use Amarok, and store the copies on the network drive
12:46:26 <sbp> .g tuneranger
12:46:27 <phenny> sbp: http://www.acertant.com/web/tuneranger/
12:46:28 <sbp> .g amarok
12:46:29 <phenny> sbp: http://amarok.kde.org/
12:50:15 <danopia> amarok is a free linux music player
12:50:25 <danopia> i use it to manage my cell phone's SD card :)
12:50:39 <danopia> unlike iTunes, you can drag music from iPod to PC
12:50:47 <danopia> iTunes only syncs one way
12:51:48 <danopia> and with amarok, it uses mysql, so you can use a central mysql database with a central file storage network drive
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13:13:06 <Monty> welcome, Arnia
13:13:45 <danopia> welcome, Monty
13:13:46 <Monty> enjoy SMC
13:14:15 <kpreid> “(We specialize in server processes, not process servers.)” — https://www.nearlyfreespeech.net/about/faq.php on the DMCA
13:24:06 <danopia> https://www.nearlyfreespeech.net/help/access_denied
13:24:15 <danopia> go to How do I fix my browser?
13:24:23 <danopia> firefox and opera have simple steps
13:24:31 <danopia> firefox is 1,2,3
13:24:41 <danopia> IE has 9 steps involving regedit
13:28:03 <sbp> danopia: well that's because it's advising to do something that goes against RFC 2616
13:28:11 <sbp> so presumably that *should* be made more difficult
13:28:22 <sbp> or RFC 2616 should be updated (as it is being), or both
13:28:33 <danopia> going against the RFC as in?
13:28:34 <sbp> you might want to check that the 2616 bis is going to include a higher number of connections
13:28:46 <sbp> well the page says: “The HTTP standard (to which all browsers are supposed to adhere) recommends that a browser should not attempt to open more than two simultaneous connections to the same site.”
13:29:04 <danopia> and it says that if you value is too high, you can set it down, althoguh it says to use 8
13:29:09 <danopia> which is defualt in firefox in opera
13:29:31 <danopia> i have 6
13:29:39 <danopia> which is firefox default for me
13:29:52 <danopia> wait
13:29:56 <danopia> lol?
13:29:58 <sbp> not a standards compliant value, according to the site
13:30:03 <sbp> though I haven't checked the RFC
13:30:13 <danopia> i have 15 per server at one time
13:30:19 <danopia> but 6 persistant per server
13:30:23 <danopia> and it says 15 is default
13:30:42 <danopia> and the process-wide max is 30
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13:38:43 <sbp> sparr0w: hello, welcome to Swhack
13:38:56 <sparr0w> Howdy.
13:39:02 <sbp> what's up? how can we help?
13:39:24 <sparr0w> Just channel surfing.
13:39:24 <Monty> innovative!
13:39:36 <sparr0w> What's "swhack" about?
13:39:56 <sbp> sparr0w: see http://swhack.com/guide for an introduction
13:40:08 <sbp> this is a publically logged channel, by the way
13:40:16 * sparr0w looking
13:40:44 <sparr0w> heh.
13:42:49 <sparr0w> CIAO.
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13:45:41 <danopia> i still don't get why if you tell someone about something, like....
13:46:00 <danopia> say i say my grandmother is sick and might die soon, why do people feel the need to say they are sorry?
13:46:04 <danopia> what did they do?
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13:46:10 <danopia> it's not like they killed her.
13:46:35 <sbp> danopia: it's short for “sorry to hear that”
13:47:02 <sbp> where sorry is being used in its capacity as a synonym for sad
13:47:24 <danopia> <CodeBlock> I'm sorry you guys have to go through all that
13:47:36 <danopia> hmm, guess that makes sense
13:48:09 <sbp> another place where sorry is used as a synonym for sad is when you see, for example, a bedraggled dog by a roadside and someone says that it looks very sorry
13:48:21 <sbp> “what a sorry creature”
14:04:19 <danopia> that makes sense
14:04:33 <danopia> but i hear sad in that case most often
14:12:08 <sbp> it's quite common in en-gb, I think
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15:12:57 <sbp> [[[
15:12:57 <sbp> I'm trying to keep up with all sorts of HTML ideas. Some things can be
15:12:57 <sbp> added to html.dtd without significant changes to W3 code (like adding a
15:12:57 <sbp> BLOCKQUOTE tag for a new paragraph style). But for things that will
15:12:57 <sbp> require changes to the architecture, I'm developing a separate DTD from
15:12:57 <sbp> the descriptive html.dtd.
15:13:05 <sbp> ]]] - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-talk/1992NovDec/0159
15:13:16 <sbp> cf. http://suika.fam.cx/gate/cvs/*checkout*/test/html.dtd?rev=1.3
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16:07:08 <shminux> how does a prefix-less command get parsed by phenny? e.g. translation
16:08:01 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2009May/0000
16:08:02 <phenny> sbp: Questions on the Origin of BLOCKQUOTE from Sean B. Palmer on 2009-05-02 (www-html@w3.org from May 2009)
16:08:25 <shminux> oh, and hi everyone
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16:09:23 <shminux> phenny: en cz "hi"?
16:09:24 <phenny> shminux: The en to cz translation failed, sorry!
16:10:08 * sbp forwards to www-talk as well as the BCC to www-archive
16:10:22 <sbp> shminux: dunno, see the source
16:10:35 <sbp> probably just a regexp against inputs
16:10:38 <shminux> I thought you were The Source
16:10:42 <sbp> maybe there's a bit of string splitting too though
16:10:51 <sbp> nah, I don't pay much attention to what I wrote
16:11:10 <sbp> I care more about the actual use and so on than how it was done
16:11:12 <shminux> huh, I thought I was the only one llike that
16:11:16 <sbp> heh, heh
16:11:32 <sbp> if I was going to find out, I'd merely be looking at the code like you :-)
16:13:38 <shminux> yeah, but, unlike me, you know a bit of python
16:14:15 * shminux digs into phenny.py
16:15:55 <sbp> yeah, I might find it a bit quicker I suppose
16:16:02 <sbp> I'll have a look then
16:16:55 <shminux> much appreciated
16:17:35 <sbp> hmm. the new way is the bit that uses either 1 or 3 in bot.py:
16:17:36 <sbp> # 1) e.g. ('$nick', '(.*)')
16:17:42 <sbp> # 3) e.g. ('$nick', ['p', 'q'], '(.*)')
16:17:46 <sbp> but then I think where you see this:
16:17:53 <sbp> if hasattr(func, 'commands'):
16:17:53 <sbp> for command in func.commands:
16:17:53 <sbp> template = r'^%s(%s)(?: +(.*))?$'
16:17:57 <sbp> that's an implementation of the old way
16:18:08 <sbp> which would probably be invoked using the @deprecated decorator
16:18:16 <sbp> so it might depend from function to function
16:18:24 <shminux> great
16:18:29 <sbp> (why do you want to know?)
16:18:39 <shminux> here is the backstory
16:18:54 <shminux> I run a copy of phenny as lingbot in a few channels
16:19:28 <shminux> and one of the linguistics people wasn't happy with google translate
16:19:41 <sbp> linguistics people. never satisfied
16:19:57 <shminux> so he rewrote tanslate.py to use apertium first
16:20:22 <shminux> it covers more languages and such
16:20:44 <shminux> but after I migrated a bot from server to server a few times
16:20:48 <sbp> translate.py uses the new style, by the way
16:20:52 <sbp> so # 1) in bot.py
16:21:03 <shminux> it stopped invoking the module at all
16:21:10 <sbp> heh
16:21:23 <shminux> so there must be an old version hiding somewhere
16:21:34 <shminux> and I can't find it :(
16:21:47 <sbp> remove the .pyc, make sure you have the latest phenny, and check that the translate.py that you're using now is syntactically valid
16:22:25 <sbp> I think if a module is broken, she'll just think "oh well" but not say anything about it
16:22:25 <shminux> I did remove the .pyc, and the new one never appears, that's how I know it doesn't use it :(
16:22:43 <sbp> well the better way of knowing is to look at the list of loaded modules upon startup
16:22:49 <shminux> but it still translates, so it must be using something else
16:22:50 <sbp> or to try a "lingbot: reload translate"
16:23:10 <sbp> er. okay. well, if you do "lingbot: reload translate" it'll give a path
16:23:14 <sbp> phenny: reload translate
16:23:15 <phenny> sbp: <module 'modules.translate' from '/var/www/inamidst.com/htdocs/phenny/modules/translate.pyc'> (version: 2009-03-20 16:12:53)
16:23:23 <sbp> see? unless you use the debian version
16:23:29 <sbp> in which case you'll have to fix it first
16:23:41 <sbp> because displaying the path was considered a security risk, or something equally hilarious
16:23:51 <nslater> shup foo'
16:23:53 <sbp> heh, heh
16:24:01 <nslater> the debian one outputs paths, I think
16:24:28 debianphenny (n=debianph@tumbolia.org) has joined #swhack
16:24:33 <shminux> holy cow, it reloaded
16:24:35 <nslater> debianphenny: reload translate
16:24:35 <debianphenny> nslater: <module 'phenny.modules.translate' from '/usr/lib/pymodules/python2.5/phenny/modules/translate.pyc'> (version: 2009-04-27 18:39:41)
16:24:41 <nslater> sbp: take that!
16:24:46 <shminux> thanks, sbp
16:24:48 <sbp> ah, good work
16:24:51 <sbp> shminux: you're welcome
16:25:02 <shminux> I guess I screwed up the reloading before
16:25:22 <nslater> .g NOAH RULEZ!
16:25:23 <debianphenny> nslater: http://www.abnnewswire.net/press/en/60120/Galaxy_Resources_Limited_ASX:GXY_Emerging_Lithium_Producer_Appoints_Noahs_Rule_As_Corporate_Advisor.html
16:25:23 <phenny> nslater: http://www.abnnewswire.net/press/en/60120/GALAXY-RESOURCES-LIMITED.html
16:25:26 debianphenny has quit (Remote closed the connection)
16:25:30 <nslater> hmm, that's odd!
16:25:41 debianphenny (n=debianph@tumbolia.org) has joined #swhack
16:25:41 <Monty2> welcome, debianphenny
16:25:46 <nslater> .g NOAH
16:25:46 <sbp> eh, google. google is odd
16:25:47 <debianphenny> nslater: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah
16:25:47 <phenny> nslater: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah
16:25:49 <nslater> .g NOAH RULEZ!
16:25:50 <debianphenny> nslater: http://www.abnnewswire.net/press/en/60120/Galaxy_Resources_Limited_ASX:GXY_Emerging_Lithium_Producer_Appoints_Noahs_Rule_As_Corporate_Advisor.html
16:25:50 <phenny> nslater: http://www.abnnewswire.net/press/en/60120/GALAXY-RESOURCES-LIMITED.html
16:25:53 <nslater> whaaa..
16:25:58 <nslater> .g NOAH SUCKS!
16:25:59 <debianphenny> nslater: http://whois.domaintools.com/noahsucks.com
16:25:59 <phenny> nslater: http://whois.domaintools.com/noahsucks.com
16:26:03 <sbp> google is not globally consistent
16:26:05 <nslater> .title noahsucks.com
16:26:07 <phenny> nslater: noahsucks.com
16:26:08 <debianphenny> nslater: noahsucks.com
16:26:10 debianphenny has quit (Remote closed the connection)
16:26:29 <nslater> .whois seansucks.com
16:26:35 <nslater> .o whois seansucks.com
16:26:38 shepazu (n=schepers@adsl-144-137-232.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #swhack
16:26:39 <phenny> The seansucks.com domain is registered to success company.
16:26:41 <sbp> there are many, many cases in the Swhack logs of Google being globally inconsistent
16:26:45 <nslater> success!
16:26:54 <sbp> especially with top results and google counts
16:26:59 <nslater> sure
16:27:12 <sbp> usually in the form of:
16:27:22 <sbp> <[bjoern]> check out the top result for "monkey faeces"
16:27:36 <sbp> <sbp> Dave Congleboob's weblog?
16:27:45 <sbp> <[bjoern]> that's not what I get. please check your google
16:27:55 <sbp> <sbp> google? in MY vagina?
16:28:07 <sbp> <[bjoern]> perhaps you would like for google to be in your vagina
16:28:20 <sbp> <sbp> perhaps you would like your very perhapsness to be in your vagina
16:28:32 <nslater> eheh
16:28:48 <nslater> trying to buy a scanner for linux is painful :(
16:29:05 <sbp> just buy lots of very small cameras and tape them together
16:29:41 <nslater> thats not a bad idea actually
16:29:55 <nslater> ... i could take pictures of my art work using a vertical tripod
16:30:22 <sbp> only if you have a camera with minimal billowing
16:30:29 <sbp> or whatever that optical abberation is called
16:30:39 <nslater> woo, pricegoblin comes through
16:30:49 <sbp> comes through what?
16:30:50 <Monty2> "conservative agenda": 36,800
16:30:52 <nslater> tryin to find an Epson Perfection 4990
16:30:53 <sbp> ah
16:31:01 <nslater> ... every single pricecomparison site doesn't list it
16:31:07 <sbp> the Epson Perfection?
16:31:07 <nslater> .title https://www.pricegoblin.co.uk/product/000939040/
16:31:11 <phenny> nslater: PriceGoblin: Sign In
16:31:13 <nslater> heh
16:31:19 <sbp> question: how many versions of the Epson Perfection have there been?
16:31:20 <nslater> ... well, if you're signed in to our secret site, it works
16:31:23 <sbp> if more than one, name fail
16:31:24 <nslater> sbp: many
16:31:30 <nslater> sbp: working from http://www.sane-project.org/sane-mfgs.html#Z-EPSON
16:32:19 <nslater> argh, all the links are old or broken
16:32:22 <nslater> stupid website
16:32:27 <nslater> WHO BUILT THIS SHIT!?!?
16:32:33 <sbp> perhaps CCing www-html was a bad idea
16:32:35 <sbp> I just got a reply:
16:32:38 <sbp> “A blockquote adds semantic value to the document.”
16:32:42 <nslater> \o/
16:32:46 <sbp> THANKS FOR THAT
16:32:51 <nslater> SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS!
16:32:51 <nslater> SEMANTICS!
16:32:51 <nslater> SEMANTICS!
16:32:51 <nslater> SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS!
16:32:51 <nslater> SEMANTICS!
16:32:53 * sbp points to the swhack topic
16:32:53 <nslater> SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS!
16:32:56 <nslater> SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS!
16:32:58 <Jibbler2> so does <marquee>
16:32:59 <nslater> SEMANTICS!
16:33:01 <nslater> SEMANTICS!
16:33:04 <nslater> SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS! SEMANTICS!
16:33:04 <sbp> Jibbler2: hehe
16:33:26 <sbp> man, he comments on my email
16:33:30 <sbp> without having apparently read my email
16:33:31 <nslater> sbp: you got a uri of the fail response?
16:33:42 <sbp> I forgot how immediately infuriating www-html is
16:34:00 <nslater> if you're lucky, his reply will completely derail any proper discussion of your email
16:34:02 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2009May/0001
16:34:02 <phenny> sbp: Re: Questions on the Origin of BLOCKQUOTE from ACJ on 2009-05-02 (www-html@w3.org from May 2009)
16:34:08 <sbp> hehe
16:34:51 <nslater> sbp: indentation or indention?
16:35:54 <shminux> indenture
16:39:38 *** shminux is now known as lingbot
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16:42:04 <sbp> nslater: indentation
16:42:18 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2009May/0002
16:42:18 <phenny> sbp: Re: Questions on the Origin of BLOCKQUOTE from Sean B. Palmer on 2009-05-02 (www-html@w3.org from May 2009)
16:42:19 <sbp> my reply
16:45:28 *** lingbot is now known as shminux
16:45:32 <nslater> sbp: nice closing
16:50:03 <sbp> thx
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17:36:36 <shminux> sbp: any chance of upgrading to python 3?
17:36:46 sqrt2 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
17:36:48 <sbp> nope
17:38:26 [bjoern] (n=bjoern@dslb-094-223-180-248.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
17:38:39 <sbp> oh hello [bjoern]
17:38:44 <[bjoern]> so CPU is 10°C cooler now it would seem
17:38:44 <sbp> we had a chat whilst you were gone
17:38:48 <sbp> not sure how that happened
17:38:50 <[bjoern]> but my memory a lot more noisy
17:39:09 <[bjoern]> I might have swapped the two modules
17:39:11 <sbp> http://swhack.com/logs/2009-05-02#T16-27-12
17:39:13 nwalsh (n=ndw@96-32-124-29.static.oxfr.ma.charter.com) has joined #swhack
17:40:44 <[bjoern]> fan seems to go a lot slower than before, or numbers are now misreported
17:40:53 <[bjoern]> Recall a steady 1700rpms, now < 1000
17:42:17 <[bjoern]> noisy memory is annoying
17:43:51 cre8radix has quit ()
17:45:41 <[bjoern]> omg someone's posted to wtfwg
17:46:04 cre8radix (n=jamaerah@c-base/crew/cre8radix) has joined #swhack
17:46:05 <Monty2> lo cre8radix
17:46:35 <cre8radix> lo Monty2
17:46:37 <Monty2> innovative!
17:46:57 <cre8radix> do you feel strongly about discussing such things?
17:47:15 <cre8radix> monty2! i am THE innovator
17:47:19 <Monty2> on this. If someone to wait a cron?
17:47:37 <cre8radix> like you monty2?
17:47:38 <Monty2> woo
17:48:16 <cre8radix> woo, monty2, what's that supposed to mean... what on orion...?
17:48:25 <Monty2> and maybe Cancer Research, Save the Content-Length header's value might know about fancy right hand from http://isitnormal.com/story/why-do-i-remember-this-26071/ btw
17:48:46 <[bjoern]> It is because I am so predictable.
17:49:38 <[bjoern]> O thx g0d, it wasn't wtfwg, it was wwwhtml
17:50:49 <sbp> yeah, as if I'd post to wtfwg
17:51:09 <sbp> and actually I meant to send it to www-talk
17:51:19 <[bjoern]> I never know what mad schemes you are up to.
17:51:24 <sbp> so I forwarded it on instead, as though I'd meant to CC it
17:51:31 <sbp> whereas actually www-html was just a typo
17:51:39 <sbp> and really quite a bad typo, given the feedback I got
17:51:59 <[bjoern]> I marked it all read very quickly
17:52:05 <sbp> good idea
17:52:11 <[bjoern]> also, I think you wrote half of the followups.
17:52:20 <sbp> yeah, so far
17:52:29 <sbp> would be surprised if I got any more
17:53:34 <[bjoern]> I'll post it the moment I come up with something good involving monkey faeces.
17:54:01 <[bjoern]> memory not quite so noisy anymore, either that was temporary, or I have no good way to test.
17:54:49 <[bjoern]> nice to see my cpu at 50°C instead of ~62-68 idle
17:57:02 <[bjoern]> you just got one
17:57:45 <[bjoern]> I would expect more really, html mutterings despite clue are popular in these spheres.
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17:59:27 <sbp> I did?
17:59:42 <sbp> oh, he didn't send it directly to me
17:59:54 <sbp> because obviously I'd be subscribed to the second most stupid mailing list in the world
18:00:07 * sbp reads it in the archives...
18:00:09 <[bjoern]> careful with your superlatives.
18:02:17 <sbp> why? my superlatives are the greatest, awesomest superlatives there are
18:03:02 <[bjoern]> True, but there is this thing about stupidity
18:03:12 <sbp> oh yeah, don't tempt it
18:03:25 <sbp> and actually, you're right
18:03:36 <sbp> because I was thinking xml-dev, but now I just thought of many other contenders...
18:06:51 <[bjoern]> .news gsg-9
18:06:51 <phenny> [bjoern]: http://www.thelocal.de/national/20090502-19019.html
18:06:56 <[bjoern]> .title
18:06:58 <phenny> [bjoern]: Somali pirates keep German ship as elite force is withdrawn - The Local
18:07:37 <sbp> didn't the Americans use long-range snipers?
18:07:48 <sbp> literally shooting them with precision from a nearby warship
18:08:17 <[bjoern]> You've seen american precision shooting since jfk?
18:08:27 <sbp> well that's what they claimed
18:08:54 <sbp> maybe they just played Britney Spears until the whole crew committed suicide
18:10:38 <sbp> all that I really want to know is whether there are guidelines for when you should do:
18:10:39 <sbp> <p>“First quoted paragraph.</p>
18:10:39 <sbp> <p>“Second quoted paragraph.”</p>
18:10:43 <sbp> and when you should do:
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18:11:02 <sbp> <blockquote>
18:11:02 <sbp> <p>First quoted paragraph.</p>
18:11:02 <sbp> <p>Second quoted paragraph.</p>
18:11:02 <sbp> </blockquote>
18:11:15 <sbp> and obviously the answer is that there are none, because the specifications are rubbish
18:11:44 <[bjoern]> why two pairs of marks and not one pair of big ones?
18:11:47 <sbp> you can't even style the latter to look like the former
18:11:51 <sbp> even with CSS 3
18:12:00 <sbp> two pairs?
18:12:08 <[bjoern]> one in each para
18:12:24 <sbp> the first paragraph only has one quote mark
18:12:28 <sbp> as standard
18:12:33 <[bjoern]> uuuh
18:12:38 <[bjoern]> thats fucking ugly
18:12:38 <Monty2> potty mouth!
18:12:48 <sbp> that's standard en-gb *and* en-us, I think
18:12:54 <[bjoern]> Sorry monty, i was blowing my fan all day.
18:12:56 <Monty2> 'The trend for correcting me ask.
18:12:58 <sbp> '
18:13:04 <sbp> see, Monty's with the trend
18:13:06 <Monty2> screws Millennium Dome?!
18:13:12 <sbp> screws you
18:13:35 <[bjoern]> katrina is over monty, but you'd make a good republican.
18:13:35 <Monty2> Right...
18:14:28 <[bjoern]> there might come a time when presidential candidates are required to take a turing test.
18:15:15 <sbp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Quotations_spanning_several_paragraphs
18:15:24 <sbp> who would administer the test though?
18:15:31 <sbp> you'd need to administer a test to test the testers
18:15:39 <sbp> and how would you administer *their* test?
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18:16:41 <[bjoern]> well clearly you would need to start now, get some people into a controlled locked biosphere, and have them breed testers.
18:17:36 *** Guest72169 is now known as The_Pot
18:17:44 <sbp> you could be sure that all humans now pass the Turing test?
18:17:59 <sbp> think about some of the people we've had in here over the years
18:18:24 <sbp> quite possibly they were not people at all
18:18:46 <[bjoern]> no en version of http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterführungszeichen I note
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18:20:41 <[bjoern]> Well then there is also the issue of whether robots should have voting rights.
18:20:54 <[bjoern]> .u DITTOMARK
18:20:55 <phenny> [bjoern]: Sorry, no results for 'DITTOMARK'.
18:21:01 <[bjoern]> .u 3003
18:21:01 <phenny> U+3003 DITTO MARK (〃)
18:22:40 <[bjoern]> according to de wikipedia the repetition of the opening quote mark is en-us only
18:22:55 * sbp -> http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUnterführungszeichen&sl=de&tl=en
18:23:01 <sbp> oh yeah?
18:23:05 <[bjoern]> well and fr it would appear, but only for secondary marks
18:23:12 <sbp> I'm trying to check a UK style guide
18:23:31 <[bjoern]> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anf%C3%BChrungszeichen#Andere_Sprachen cf the sup 1
18:26:55 <[bjoern]> .title http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html
18:26:56 <phenny> [bjoern]: World's Best Headlines: BBC News (Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox)
18:28:02 <sbp> laughably, the only style guide I can find that I've got access to is “The Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style”
18:28:24 <[bjoern]> ...
18:29:15 <Jibbler2> world's best headlines? i've seen quite a few bbc news headlines that are misleading to the point of comedy :)
18:29:22 <[bjoern]> me too
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18:32:03 <sbp> my university style guide says to do as Wikipedia advises
18:32:14 <sbp> and Wikipedia's example is taken from Pride and Prejudice, which is a British book
18:32:24 <sbp> so tentatively, I'm going to say it's correct British style
18:32:41 <[bjoern]> But is it taken from an us print of the book?
18:33:26 <sbp> it doesn't say
18:33:33 <Jibbler2> i think this is my favourite bbc news article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/6521485.stm
18:34:22 <sbp> heh, what: Pride and Prejudice: Webster's German Thesaurus Edition
18:34:54 <[bjoern]> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8030898.stm
18:34:55 <phenny> [bjoern]: BBC NEWS | World | Americas | US plane crash lands on toilets
18:36:55 <sbp> see, that's a concise and perfectly descriptive title
18:42:02 <[bjoern]> so it seems 1700rpms was about the max of my fan
18:42:17 <[bjoern]> so under heavy load it can spin faster, relatively to idle, now
18:42:30 <[bjoern]> meaning it's now 20°C cooler than before in that case...
18:42:46 <[bjoern]> with some 200rpms room still
18:51:32 <sbp> “If a section consisting of two or more paragraphs from the same source
18:51:32 <sbp> is quoted, but not displayed, quotation marks are used at the begin-
18:51:32 <sbp> ning of each paragraph and the end of the last one, but not at the end
18:51:32 <sbp> of the first and intermediate paragraphs.”
18:51:32 <sbp> — New Hart's Rules, p.154
18:51:41 <sbp> I'm not sure what it means by “but not displayed”
18:51:46 <sbp> anyway, that's about as English as you can get
18:52:12 <sbp> oh, displayed == block (i.e. indented)
18:52:45 <sbp> they say they're called displayed or block quotations, or extracts
18:53:46 <sbp> and even this doesn't advise when to use displayed and when to use multiple paragraph non-displayed
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19:00:51 <sbp> one book advises anything over five lines or sixty words should use displayed text
19:06:21 <sbp> man, there's no good advice on this
19:07:11 <[bjoern]> Don't do the repeat-only-open-marks-thing is good advice.
19:07:33 <sbp> it's always made fine sense to me
19:07:40 <sbp> an educated reader will see it a lot and understand it easily
19:08:10 <sbp> but style guides are indiscriminate in their advice on when to use one or the other
19:08:23 <sbp> most seem to say use display quotation for anything “long”
19:08:43 <sbp> but they cite no historical precedent or research or rationale as to why
19:08:47 <[bjoern]> QUOTE BEGINS I
19:08:48 <[bjoern]> QUOTE BEGINS think
19:08:48 <[bjoern]> QUOTE BEGINS not QUOTE ENDS
19:09:09 <sbp> there was a period when you'd use a “ on every line of the quoted text
19:09:14 <sbp> a bit like > in email replies
19:09:27 <sbp> but that looked pretty shit
19:09:47 <[bjoern]> mails use > more because indentation is tricky there.
19:10:27 <[bjoern]> I use indentation for anything out of flow
19:10:37 <[bjoern]> which makes a lot of sense you will agree.
19:11:43 <sbp> indentation is easy!
19:11:44 <Monty2> restart impossible
19:11:51 <sbp> indentation easy, restart impossible
19:12:10 <[bjoern]> Would make a fine topic, if we didn't have a better one already.
19:12:44 <sbp> congratulations. most people do not understand the finer points of topics
19:13:26 <[bjoern]> More often than not our topics are Mit-Kanonen-auf-Spatzen-schiessen - style.
19:15:11 <sbp> heh, yeah. (waß ißt daß?)
19:15:38 <[bjoern]> that is improper use of ß.
19:16:03 <sbp> heh, yeah
19:16:36 <sbp> .gc "atom bomb to kill a rabbit"
19:16:37 <phenny> "atom bomb to kill a rabbit": 2
19:16:43 <sbp> .gc "cannon to kill a rabbit"
19:16:45 <phenny> "cannon to kill a rabbit": 3
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19:22:20 <sbp> .gs the president's * is missing
19:22:21 <phenny> sbp: plane (33), penis (19), brain (12), neck (9), sofa (4), watch (3)
19:22:49 <[bjoern]> so anybody got a solution for my noisy memory problem?
19:23:12 <sbp> tell it to shup the up fuck
19:23:16 <[bjoern]> memory access leads to hi freq "ssssss" sound, more so than before
19:24:08 <sbp> either that or get new memory
19:24:37 <[bjoern]> I could swap the two blocks, maybe that'd return it to old levels...
19:24:59 <[bjoern]> I could also check the board manual and figure out why they are in the banks they are in, perhaps there is a relationship...
19:25:23 <[bjoern]> .g noisy ram
19:25:23 <phenny> [bjoern]: http://forums.appleinsider.com/archive/index.php/t-12986.html
19:25:26 <[bjoern]> .title
19:25:27 <phenny> [bjoern]: NOISY RAM! [Archive] - AppleInsider
19:25:34 <[bjoern]> well title is okay...
19:26:25 <sbp> HE HAS TO SHOUT
19:26:31 <sbp> BECAUSE OTHERWISE YOU CANNOT HEAR HIM
19:26:35 <sbp> OVER HIS NOISY RAM
19:26:42 <[bjoern]> "Is it a kind of wierd keening sound, almost like a squeak? If it is, i've had similar experiences. I think it's to do with the monitor, i've noticed in the past that often you can hear graphics change on the screen, sounds odd I know but it happens."
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19:28:37 <[bjoern]> seems many people have noisy ram, but everybody tells them ON NO RAM NO NOISE MAKINX OMG LOL
19:31:20 <[bjoern]> "My Crucial RAM makes noise, or at least it makes the motherboard voltage regulators/ferrite chokes more likely to make noise under load."
19:33:30 <[bjoern]> "could it be some components releasing heat energy as sound energy or something like that?"
19:37:54 <sbp> chuckle
19:38:07 <sbp> heat goes in, sound comes out
19:38:14 <sbp> that's what Osaka Motherboard Concern is all about
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20:26:33 <[bjoern]> .gs but I like the way you *
20:26:33 <phenny> but I like the way you *: think (55), guys (2), draw (2)
20:26:39 <[bjoern]> .gs but I like the way you guys *
20:26:39 <phenny> [bjoern]: think (2), are thinking (2)
20:40:42 <sbp> offs. 'night!
20:41:09 <[bjoern]> and off you are!
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23:36:39 <[bjoern]> Ending function names in ' is perverse.
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