Swhack! 2 January 2010
00:39:20 <[bjoern]> .web http://da.vidr.cc/projects/lljvm/
00:39:20 <phenny> [bjoern]: the .web command has been removed; ask sbp for details
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02:47:41 <Monty> hey jeffarch
02:48:09 <jeffarch> hny Monty!
02:48:12 <Monty> i'll be tried to iterate over it under extreme duress
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06:37:45 <[[sroracle|iPod]> .o mirror
06:37:46 <phenny> Your petulance is seduction unto extinction.
06:40:38 <[[sroracle|iPod]> .t
06:40:38 <phenny> Sat, 02 Jan 2010 06:40:38 GMT
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07:50:35 <[bjoern]> phenny, "Savner du sommeren? Se solskinnet!"?
07:50:35 <phenny> [bjoern]: "Do you miss summer? See the sunshine!" (no to en, translate.google.com)
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08:48:04 <[bjoern]> "$ua->default_header("HTTP_REFERER" => /* Enter the URL of your site here */);" -- Google on how to use their services through Perl.
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09:15:30 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp http://blog.jclark.com/2010/01/xml-namespaces.html
09:15:30 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
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10:36:30 <Monty> Thank goodness, ephemerian is back!
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13:24:27 <sbp> yo
13:24:27 <phenny> sbp: 01 Jan 19:46Z <nslater> tell sbp http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2009/12/blue-moon-years-eve/
13:24:29 <phenny> sbp: 09:15Z <[bjoern]> tell sbp http://blog.jclark.com/2010/01/xml-namespaces.html
13:30:27 <sbp> phenny: tell [bjoern] I don't think that he's right about this: "As far as I remember, there was actually no discussion in the XML WG on this point when we were doing XML Namespaces: it was treated as axiomatic that URIs were the right thing to use here." — as far as I recall, xml-sig had a HUGE discussion on what kind of identifiers to use, and only settled on URIs after a heck of a lot of arguing
13:30:27 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when [bjoern] is around.
13:31:14 <[bjoern]> http://loeschmonitor.appspot.com/ totally has gradients
13:31:14 <phenny> [bjoern]: 13:30Z <sbp> tell [bjoern] I don't think that he's right about this: "As far as I remember, there was actually no discussion in the XML WG on this point when we were doing XML Namespaces: it was treated as axiomatic that URIs were the right thing to use here." — as far as I recall, xml-sig had a HUGE discussion on what kind of identifiers to use, and only settled on URIs after a heck of a lot of arguing
13:31:30 <[bjoern]> Oh you read it? The interesting bit was that he wants to blog more, i thought.
13:32:03 <sbp> heh, heh
13:32:17 <sbp> well I thought it was funny how he's come to the same conclusions that everybody else came to ten years ago
13:34:02 <[bjoern]> I doubt I came to the conclusion to blog more ten years ago.
13:34:35 <[bjoern]> Ten years ago I had my first own email address for like a year and a week.
13:34:39 <sbp> perhaps you've since supressed the memory
13:35:22 <sbp> nslater showed me this the other day:
13:35:28 <[bjoern]> Oh god
13:35:36 <sbp> .title http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/21/vatican_copyright/
13:35:37 <phenny> sbp: Vatican awards self 'unique copyright' on Pope • The Register
13:35:38 <Monty> explain that you write unicode to anybody tell you said mercurial/git
13:35:47 <sbp> yeah, it's even worse than youtube — it's theregister
13:36:05 <sbp> so it says: “Apparently, the Vatican has mistaken copyright for a trademark.”
13:36:12 <sbp> and it quotes the Catholic News Agency
13:36:51 <sbp> but is the CNA the official mouthpiece for the Vatican?
13:36:52 <[bjoern]> Use of anything referring to?
13:37:08 <sbp> I found this statement from the Vatican itself:
13:37:09 <sbp> http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2009/documents/rc_seg-st_20091219_tutela-figura-papa_en.html
13:37:17 <sbp> and it doesn't mention "copyright" at all
13:37:32 <[bjoern]> "Recent years have witnessed a great increase of affection and esteem for the person of the Holy Father" [citation needed]
13:37:45 <sbp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_News_Agency doesn't say the CNA is the official mouthpiece of the Vatican
13:38:06 <[bjoern]> MediaWiki does not support <marquee> unfortunately.
13:38:18 <sbp> so I assume that “Apparently, the Vatican has mistaken copyright for a trademark.” should read as follows: “Apparently, the Register has mistaken the Catholic News Agency for the Vatican.”
13:39:53 <sbp> looking up international trademark law now
13:41:36 <sbp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#International_trademark_laws
13:42:03 <[bjoern]> Is the Holy See WTO member, say?
13:42:41 <[bjoern]> WIPO member they are
13:42:53 <sbp> well, I was wondering if perhaps this would count as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Well-known_trade_mark
13:43:33 <sbp> though I suppose that refers to interpretation *in* such countries, not interpretation of trademarks established in such countries
13:43:40 <[bjoern]> .wik Generic term
13:43:41 <phenny> "A genericized trademark (also known as a generic trademark, proprietary eponym) is a trademark or brand name that has become the colloquial or generic description for or synonymous with a general class of product or service, rather than the specific meaning intended by [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_term
13:44:22 <[bjoern]> There is plenty of XY Pope, say
13:44:33 <sbp> .g "XY Pope"
13:44:33 <phenny> sbp: http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/jtext?jacsat/124/i30/abs/ja0259077
13:45:12 <sbp> yeah, I guess it wouldn't include Pope as surname
13:46:06 <[bjoern]> .wik de:Literaturpapst
13:46:06 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "de:Literaturpapst".
13:46:12 <sbp> anyway, my conclusion is that the reporting on this is shoddy as usual, and the legal status on something as tricky as international trademark law regarding a statement from the Vatican is unknowable to a layman
13:46:16 <[bjoern]> Is it googling only now?
13:46:30 <[bjoern]> it could follow the redirect instead...
13:46:38 <sbp> hmm. should follow the redirect
13:46:55 <sbp> it's a bit fragile anyway, Wikipedia isn't exactly machine readably friendly
13:47:19 <sbp> like they didn't (don't?) use 3xx codes for redirects
13:47:21 <[bjoern]> perhaps you have logic preventing it from going en.wp -> de.wp
13:47:28 <sbp> hehe
13:47:31 <sbp> that would make sense
13:48:48 <[bjoern]> They use 302 redirects in this case
13:48:53 <[bjoern]> .gc "Activation of Nitrous Oxide and Selective Epoxidation of Alkenes Catalyzed by the Manganese-Substituted Polyoxometalate"
13:48:54 <phenny> "Activation of Nitrous Oxide and Selective Epoxidation of Alkenes Catalyzed by the Manganese-Substituted Polyoxometalate": 3
13:49:36 <sbp> it's quite possible I don't recognise the 302 because they didn't formerly use them
13:53:40 <sbp> ha, check out http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2411151/posts
13:53:55 <sbp> summary: someone already registered "Pontificial" in the US
13:54:11 <sbp> "Registration Date May 12, 1987"
13:57:02 <sbp> ah here we go, the first analysis I've seen so far from an actual lawyer:
13:57:04 <sbp> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6964554.ece
13:58:50 <sbp> I wonder what this lawyer would say about #Well-known_trade_mark with respect to this case
14:00:01 <sbp> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091220/2235087438.shtml suggests it may be more of a publicity right
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14:00:30 <sbp> and comes up with an interesting point: "I guess since this is likely directed at Catholic organizations misusing Papal symbols that they will then obey the Pope, but otherwise, this doesn't seem like a huge deal."
14:02:13 <sbp> RANDOM CHANGE OF TOPIC
14:02:15 <sbp> "The Aftonbladet newspaper reported that the sign had been stolen by Polish thieves paid by and working on behalf of a Swedish right-wing extremist group hoping to use proceeds from the proposed sale of the sign to a collector of Nazi memorabilia, to finance a series of terror attacks aimed at influencing voters in upcoming Swedish Parliamentary elections."
14:02:20 <sbp> — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#.22Arbeit_macht_frei.22_sign_theft
14:02:58 <sbp> (actually inspired by a photo of the pope walking into Auschwitz on a page about the "copyright" thing. this was some Australian site calling it a copyright, IIRC)
14:10:52 <sbp> of the 86 or so comments on the Reg article, I've only found one which actually points out that the original Vatican statement doesn't mention copyright at all:
14:10:53 <sbp> http://forums.theregister.co.uk/post/653246
14:11:00 <sbp> and it has one up vote and four down votes! hehe
14:11:10 <sbp> though admittedly it is a bit inflammatory
14:11:48 <sbp> it also points out something that I missed, that the techdirt suggestion is backed up by what's written in the article itself
14:11:57 <sbp> in the statement, I mean
14:14:08 <sbp> phenny: tell nslater that the source The Register quotes is not an official Vatican mouthpiece. the official Vatican statement (on vatican.va), does not mention "copyright" at all, and (as techdirt.com and a commentor on the Reg article point out) only seems to be directed at *Catholic* initiatives misusing the marks in question
14:14:08 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when nslater is around.
14:14:33 <sbp> phenny: tell nslater that you and the register both need to lrn2journalism, thx
14:14:33 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when nslater is around.
14:15:31 <sbp> I suppose bad journalism annoys me so much because it's so closely related to bad research
14:15:39 <sbp> I mean bad academic research
14:16:12 <sbp> I wonder how similar the factors that corrupt each of these are
14:17:00 <sbp> media research is corrupted perhaps most due to the need for sensationalism and selling copy, I would guess? whereas academic research seems most often perverted, to me, because of systematic error rather than deliberate misinformation. in my field at least
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17:11:11 <nslater> yo
17:11:11 <phenny> nslater: 14:14Z <sbp> tell nslater that the source The Register quotes is not an official Vatican mouthpiece. the official Vatican statement (on vatican.va), does not mention "copyright" at all, and (as techdirt.com and a commentor on the Reg article point out) only seems to be directed at *Catholic* initiatives misusing the marks in question
17:11:12 <phenny> nslater: 14:14Z <sbp> tell nslater that you and the register both need to lrn2journalism, thx
17:11:33 <nslater> actually, I managed to find the site where the press releases was issued from
17:11:41 <nslater> but the search feature there was tricky to use
17:11:50 <nslater> so i was unable to find the original source, and gave up after about 15 minutes
18:01:01 <sbp> strange. let's see how many clicks it took me
18:01:03 <sbp> http://www.vatican.va/
18:01:08 <sbp> -> Holy See in English
18:01:15 <sbp> -> http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
18:01:23 <sbp> -> Latest Updates
18:01:24 <sbp> -> http://www.vatican.va/latest/latest_en.htm
18:01:35 <sbp> -> Declaration etc. (top link)
18:01:37 <sbp> -> http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2009/documents/rc_seg-st_20091219_tutela-figura-papa_en.html
18:01:41 <sbp> so, three clicks
18:01:55 <sbp> basically "Give me this in English", "Give me the News", and "Give me the most recent News item"
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18:29:29 <sbp> did you mean a different site?
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22:38:49 <Monty> bah, it's sivy again
22:43:36 <sivy> pheh. Frikkin monty.
22:43:38 <Monty> smacks Netscape fugal Atari Jaguar.
22:56:54 <jessica> phenny, tell xover to peruse http://tinyurl.com/last-stands at his convenience.
22:56:54 <phenny> jessica: I'll pass that on when xover is around.
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23:22:08 <[bjoern]> phenny, "Syndrom Halemby: strach przed decydowaniem"?
23:22:08 <phenny> [bjoern]: "Halemba syndrome: the fear of discretion" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
23:22:45 <[bjoern]> phenny, "Szkoda, że trzeba było śmierci aż 23 ludzi, by ujawnił się "syndrom Halemby". Jeżeli skończy się wykorzystywanie górników, szaleńcza pogoń"?
23:22:45 <phenny> [bjoern]: "It is a pity that we had the death of up to 23 people that showed up "syndrome Halemba. If the end of the use of coal miners, frantic chase" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
23:24:07 <deltab> Google, please tech your translation software about HTML.
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23:42:41 <Monty> Thank goodness, tobbez is back!
23:44:00 <tobbez> hi there, Monty
23:44:01 <Monty> infinite NetBSD!