Swhack! 29 January 2010
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11:03:01 <sbp> yo
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11:45:21 <Arnia> yoyos... I need a yoyo
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12:17:55 <[bjoern]> SBP !! ALTERTINX
12:18:03 <[bjoern]> LINK TO FOLLOW
12:18:11 <[bjoern]> SEATEN THY FASTBELTS
12:18:28 <[bjoern]> R U RDY ?
12:18:41 <[bjoern]> Check out the headlines on http://news.google.com/news/story?pz=1&cf=all&ned=de&hl=en&cf=all&ncl=dCPDB2b4W7veZSM_aMFiYmwC-J6-M
12:18:45 <[bjoern]> there are some good ones
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12:19:53 <[bjoern]> kpreid: A fair day to you.
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12:36:54 <kpreid> UNFAIR! UNFAIR!
12:48:32 * Arnia replaces Blair with kpreid
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17:36:33 <sbp> yo!
17:37:17 <sbp> “Spokesman Vladimir Salovarov said a total of 204 people required some medical treatment. However it is too early to say exactly what caused the illness.”
17:37:20 <sbp> demons in the water?
17:37:28 <jeanniecool> y0!
17:37:28 <sbp> waterbourne demons are a common cause of water problems
17:37:31 <jeanniecool> penis!
17:37:34 <sbp> penis!
17:38:10 * jeanniecool still doesn't have one
17:38:48 <sbp> keep trying
17:38:53 <jeanniecool> 'kay
17:39:11 <sbp> sup?
17:39:20 <jeanniecool> colbert report
17:39:26 <jeanniecool> fawkin' funny
17:43:28 <sbp> oh yeah?
17:44:02 <jeanniecool> oh, yeah
17:44:24 <jeanniecool> totally recommend the show from thursday
17:44:44 <sbp> I'd have to torrent it
17:44:50 <jeanniecool> no hulu?
17:44:56 <sbp> the video clips on Comedy Central aren't available outside the US
17:45:01 <sbp> .g hulu
17:45:01 <phenny> sbp: http://www.hulu.com/
17:45:19 <sbp> that only works in the US too
17:45:22 <jeanniecool> that's b/c the com central site sux0rs
17:45:24 <jeanniecool> grrr
17:45:27 * jeanniecool is sorry to hear that
17:46:22 <jeanniecool> one of the highlights:
17:47:29 <jeanniecool> showed Jobs introducing the iPad by name, then cut to Apple-type logo and said s.th. like "Which won out over the name they almost used: the TamPod."
17:47:50 <sbp> haha
17:47:59 <jeanniecool> :-D
17:48:04 <jeanniecool> see? Funny!!!
17:48:09 <sbp> yeah, not bad
17:48:21 <jeanniecool> :-P
17:49:21 <sbp> how's Daily Show been lately?
17:49:28 <jeanniecool> pretty good
17:49:29 <sbp> we only get like the international version
17:49:31 <sbp> which suuuuucks
17:49:33 <jeanniecool> this week, at least
17:49:36 <sbp> cool
17:49:37 <jeanniecool> Yeah, I know. :-(
17:50:12 * jeanniecool doesn't have real TV at home
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17:54:32 <sbp> dear oh dear
17:54:37 <sbp> no penis, no telly...
17:54:41 <sbp> what do you even DO all day? :-)
17:54:54 <tav> they have these toys nowadays...
17:55:13 <sbp> naughty them
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18:37:00 <sbp> bad chanserv
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18:55:10 *** sivy is now known as sivy_lunch
19:14:55 <deltab> sbp: ahead of their time: http://youtu.be/YFNQE_TzQNI
19:14:59 <deltab> .title
19:15:06 <phenny> deltab: YouTube - Apple I-Pad
19:51:38 * Arnia boings at deltab
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20:34:39 <deltab> sbp: QI is on
20:39:07 <jeanniecool> tav++
20:39:10 <jeanniecool> sbp++
20:39:12 <jeanniecool> toys++
20:40:02 <jeanniecool> (sorry I missed your question, SeanB, but wth knows what I do all day?? I sure don't!!)
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21:14:05 <sbp> deltab: bwahaha
21:14:22 <sbp> also dig the use of youtu.be, which I hadn't seen before
21:16:38 <deltab> are you aware of bbc.co.uk/i/{id} ?
21:18:58 <deltab> e.g. bbc.co.uk/i/qck1t
21:19:52 <sbp> wow, nope
21:19:59 <sbp> does this only refer to iPlayer programmes?
21:20:13 <deltab> as far as I know
21:20:22 <deltab> what else would it refer to?
21:21:21 <sbp> well, for example isn't there a catalogue of all programmes ever shown?
21:21:25 <deltab> you can also add ?t=2m52s
21:21:26 <sbp> also, news story IDs
21:21:32 <sbp> nice
21:21:33 <deltab> there's /programmes
21:22:14 <deltab> which uses the same ids, but I've not heard of shortened urls for it
21:26:19 <deltab> other youtube features: http://youtube.com/xl and http://youtube.com/disco
21:26:41 <sbp> woah, XL
21:27:12 *** sivy_lunch is now known as sivy
21:27:38 <jeanniecool> ...you talkin' about my ass, SeanB?
21:27:45 <jeanniecool> That seems mean!
21:29:14 <jeanniecool> And for that, I'm storming off!!!!
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21:30:10 <sbp> I only talk about her ass behind her back
21:30:39 <sbp> (what figure of speech is that? not a pun, but kinda close)
21:31:29 * deltab checks http://enwp.org/Figure_of_speech
21:31:59 <deltab> "The saying "I got your back" almost never has the literal meaning of receipt or possession of another's spine."
21:32:03 <sbp> ha!
21:32:10 <sbp> lols
21:33:47 <sbp> BAD CHANSERV
21:36:52 <deltab> do you like 8 Out of 10 Cats?
21:37:21 <sbp> more than that I'd say, probably 10 out of 10
21:37:52 <sbp> though, assuming it's the name of a show or album or band or something, I haven't heard of it or them or whichever pronoun is appropriate
21:38:06 <sbp> I will now turn to my good friend phenny:
21:38:10 <sbp> .wik 8 Out of 10 Cats
21:38:11 <phenny> "8 out of 10 Cats is a television comedy panel game made by Zeppotron (a subsidiary of Endemol) for Channel 4." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_Out_of_10_Cats
21:38:12 <deltab> tv show on channel 4
21:38:26 <sbp> nope. weird, don't even recall seeing a trailer
21:38:35 <deltab> on now
21:38:35 * sbp checks out the panels
21:39:10 <sbp> “The first advert ever screened during the show's commercial break was for Whiskas”
21:39:13 <sbp> — chuckle
21:39:17 <sbp> filing this one under h for hmm
21:39:18 <deltab> heh
21:39:30 <sbp> not a major fan of Jimmy Carr. he's okay though
21:39:43 <sbp> he's like a broken Jack Dee though
21:42:38 <sbp> hey, Alan Carr is often on it
21:42:42 <sbp> they could be sisters
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22:04:37 <sbp> yo MaienM
22:04:54 <MaienM> yo sbp
22:05:11 <MaienM> sup?
22:06:28 <sbp> just hanging, chilling, little bit o' illing
22:07:20 <sbp> just faffing with http://www.youtube.com/disco really
22:07:49 <MaienM> oh, nice
22:08:01 <MaienM> kinda like last.fm, right?
22:09:44 <sbp> don't think so
22:09:54 <sbp> isn't the point of last.fm mainly to push your playlists?
22:10:15 <MaienM> and to do recomendations based on what you have in your library
22:10:30 <MaienM> which is what I mainly use it for, to discover new music
22:10:49 <MaienM> I don't really care about people beeing able to see what I'm listening to in-real-time
22:19:00 <sbp> now I'm looking at the Dutch national football team for some reason
22:20:48 <sbp> Graham Linehan's weblog depresses me perhaps more than any other
22:21:15 <sbp> for such a comic genius, his weblog has become overwhelmingly dull and... just dull
22:21:25 <sbp> it can't even muster a different adjective from me. it is that bad
22:21:31 <sbp> I just can't understand it, really
22:21:42 <sbp> this is the man who wrote Father Ted and the IT Crowd for goodness' sake
22:21:52 <sbp> perhaps I should be thankful that he saves his comedy for the telly
22:21:59 <nslater> yo
22:22:03 <sbp> hey nslater
22:22:13 <nslater> am i missing anything good in hear?
22:22:16 <sbp> nope
22:22:19 <nslater> i see you oppered, which implies drama
22:22:19 <MaienM> the IT crowd was awesome :D
22:22:23 <sbp> except deltab's URI shortening spree
22:22:29 <MaienM> that reminds me, I should finish it :D
22:22:30 <sbp> yeah, there were some CTCP spams
22:22:35 <nslater> ah
22:22:36 <sbp> so I did +s for a while to stop them
22:22:50 <sbp> MaienM: the first episode of Season 2 made me chox SO hard
22:23:02 <MaienM> I only watched S1 so far
22:23:03 <nslater> oh yeah
22:23:16 <MaienM> have the rest ready to watch though, just been busy
22:23:21 <MaienM> s/busy/lazy/
22:23:25 <sbp> hehe
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22:25:38 <Arnia> .c 99USD in GBP
22:25:39 <phenny> 99 U.S. dollars = 61.8479415 British pounds
22:25:50 <Arnia> ooh, I guessed £61
22:26:04 <Arnia> complete fluke of course...
22:28:19 <sbp> .gcs "Elder Green Blues" "Elder Greene Blues"
22:28:20 <phenny> "Elder Greene Blues" (268), "Elder Green Blues" (149)
22:29:01 <sbp> haha, what: “We're sorry but the artist has decided not to disclose the lyrics for this song.” — http://www.twin-music.com/artist_C/charley_patton_lyrics/elder_greene_blues_take_1_lyrics.html
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22:34:28 <Arnia> iz secretz
22:35:09 <sbp> hehe
22:37:30 <Arnia> I wonder why so many people think that laptops are the paragon of user interface design...
22:38:06 <Arnia> Serious question actually. If I understood that, I might be able to think of better industrial designs
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22:40:28 <Arnia> I'm very curious about the potential for alternative UIs. You know my opinion on software models.
22:40:49 <nslater> http://scienceblogs.com/oscillator/2010/01/the_internet_is_for_memes.php
22:41:12 <sbp> Arnia: I've been noodling recently on the idea of gradual cognitive conservativism
22:41:21 <Arnia> oh?
22:42:21 <sbp> where people at first start out very progressive in a particular field, and then try to retain that progressiveness as they continue their work, but once they've invested too much in the field several factors creep in — they get used to ways of doing something (tradition), they might have financial or social stock in the current ways of doing thing (vestment), and they may have their creativity limited by the current ways (constrai
22:42:21 <sbp> nt)
22:42:47 <sbp> and *without realising it* — at first, and sometimes ever — they become conservative
22:42:58 <Arnia> this is similar to my ideas of intellectual inertia
22:43:26 <Arnia> (based on the metaphor KNOWLEDGE is MASSIVE)
22:43:31 <MaienM> that makes sense
22:43:50 <Arnia> That metaphor is quite interesting in its own right
22:43:56 <Arnia> 'it is a weighty problem'
22:44:01 <Arnia> 'I have to weight it up'
22:44:01 * sbp imagines technology R&D as a giant Newton's cradle... :-)
22:44:05 <MaienM> once you're used to slving a problem in a certain way its only natural to use that again when you need it
22:44:23 <MaienM> not reinventing the wheel and stuff
22:44:31 <Arnia> 'I pushed the idea'
22:44:31 <MaienM> of course, that kills innovation :(
22:44:45 <Arnia> It fits with CBR ideas of human planning
22:45:16 <sbp> it's very hard to break out of when you push past the "good enough" barrier, it seems
22:45:27 <sbp> because your motive for improving further goes out of the window
22:45:38 <Arnia> yeah
22:45:40 <sbp> similar to the strain when people have to learn a new language without being immersed in the culture
22:45:53 <sbp> "there is no reason to do this very hard work"
22:46:00 davisp has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:46:27 <Arnia> also, the number of potential interconcept connections (causal associations, blends, etc.) goes up exponentially in the number of concepts in a model
22:46:28 * sbp imagined a left to right push past the barrier, by the way
22:46:54 <sbp> so you're saying the search space is too big to explore properly?
22:46:58 <Arnia> so it becomes much more difficult (actual effort) to unroot a model
22:47:00 <sbp> s/is/becomes/
22:47:11 <Arnia> (disconnect all the connections)
22:47:20 davisp (n=davisp@couchdb/developer/davisp) has joined #swhack
22:48:25 *** sbp changed the topic to: "Gradual Cognitive Conservativism & Intellectual Inertia"
22:49:00 <MaienM> in other words, the more knowledge you have on something, the more you have to forget to be truly innovational, correct?
22:49:06 <Arnia> Yes
22:49:12 <Arnia> Or at least, discount
22:49:21 cori[s] has quit ()
22:49:26 <nslater> sorry to bring one the tone of the discussion
22:49:27 <nslater> but
22:49:29 <nslater> .title http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/43415276.html
22:49:31 <phenny> nslater: ohnotheydidnt: 11 most scandalous "Saved By The Bell" revelations in Screech's book
22:49:31 <Arnia> (I mean that in an evidential sense... discounting is the reduction in the weight of evidence of a connection)
22:49:33 <sbp> funny that, I'd never actually thought about it in terms of metaphor
22:49:34 * nslater is grining
22:49:53 <sbp> I'd only thought about it in terms of the... what Bloom calls some hoity toity name but which I know as the Milton Problem
22:50:00 <Arnia> Whine and grine?
22:50:26 <sbp> where an artistic tradition is so well regarded that it becomes almost inescapable, and it can cause whole *periods* of artistic languish as people struggle to escape its influence
22:50:47 <sbp> thus, Milton -creative ossification-> Augustan period
22:50:48 <Arnia> sbp: I think it is very closely related to the dynamics of paradigm shifts; as in, paradigm shift dynamics are caused by this mechanism
22:50:50 <MaienM> man, you guys are confusing me with all those long and complicated words :P
22:51:03 <sbp> mmm... words
22:51:11 <Arnia> I love words
22:51:12 <MaienM> and terms, too ;)
22:51:13 <sbp> how so?
22:51:16 <Arnia> in sandwiches
22:51:33 <sbp> brb
22:51:38 <Arnia> sbp: paradigm shifts follow a catastrophic dynamic
22:52:00 <nslater> .g holocaust enrichment day
22:52:01 <phenny> nslater: http://www.hmd.org.uk/events/find/london/9276legacy-of-hope-year-8-holocaust-memorial-day-enrichment-day
22:52:13 <Arnia> sbp: the system stays relatively static (within a given paradigm) for a long time and then a small amount of extra evidence and suddenly the system shifts to a new paradigm
22:52:56 <Arnia> sbp: I think these catastrophic dynamics are closely linked to the way human categorisation is radial in nature but often perceived as classical
22:56:59 <sbp> maybe
22:57:07 <sbp> the funny thing is, I've been thinking about this carefully for years
22:57:14 <sbp> and I don't really have any good suggestions to make still
22:57:40 <Arnia> That is, the categories are radial in composition, but with catastrophic classification (so small amounts of change of evidence can shift an object across from one ICM to another)
22:57:50 <sbp> I still kinda think I have to take a more careful look at Bacon
22:57:53 <Arnia> Yeah, I've been thinking about it a fair amount too
22:58:00 <Arnia> maybe if we pool our ideas
22:58:43 <sbp> well I was sort of working off of Feyerabend
22:59:06 <sbp> before Kuhn people thought scientific progression was linear
22:59:10 <sbp> then Kuhn came up with paradigms
22:59:26 <sbp> then Feyerabend was like "even the paradigms are probably less linear than we think"
22:59:44 <sbp> so now I'm thinking damn, even the non-linearity is probably non-linear in some level above that
22:59:52 <Arnia> hmm...
22:59:56 <sbp> which is some complicated shit already
23:00:04 <Arnia> .wik catastrophe theory
23:00:04 <phenny> "In mathematics, catastrophe theory is a branch of bifurcation theory in the study of dynamical systems; it is also a particular special case of more general singularity theory in geometry." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_theory
23:00:35 <Arnia> 'Catastrophic classification theory' sounds cool
23:01:29 <Arnia> 'have you bifurcated today?'
23:03:01 <sbp> back. weird, laptop just died twice
23:03:05 <sbp> power interruptions?
23:03:09 <sbp> anyway, reviewing logs
23:04:35 <sbp> yeah, so I was thinking about it in terms of media interaction
23:05:11 <sbp> because what you get in great periods of scientific revolution is sometimes not so much a great bubbling up of ideas, as a great popularisation of certain ideas
23:05:39 <Arnia> self-organisation
23:06:13 <sbp> well, I guess you could call the previous decade the Age of Terrorism
23:06:25 <sbp> I suppose that was pretty self-organising around a single event
23:06:49 <Arnia> It was also the Age of Networking
23:06:56 <sbp> the Newtonian age organised around Principia I guess
23:07:07 <sbp> yeah, but you know me, always the pessimist
23:07:13 <Arnia> (interestingly, the two were in conflict)
23:07:19 <sbp> you know what, I can see the Age of Terrorism clearly
23:07:28 <sbp> I can't see the Age of Networking yet because I feel too immersed in it
23:08:01 <sbp> I shocked myself the other month when I learned about a new band thanks to youtube — doesn't sound at all weird, but I had this moment where I could see clearly how different that was to a decade before
23:08:04 <sbp> completely lost it again now
23:08:14 <sbp> but I remember the surprise when I "grasped" that
23:08:25 <Arnia> Yeah... I still notice these things and they always make me pause
23:08:29 <Arnia> My friends think I'm mad
23:08:34 <sbp> hehe
23:08:44 <sbp> most recent for me was using Star Walk on the iPod
23:08:45 <Arnia> But I remember so clearly how different things were before about 1999
23:08:54 <sbp> it's a kind of little planetarium or planisphere thing
23:09:27 <sbp> and I was holding it in the palm of my hand, looking at the sky, moving the screen about with my finger, and — this one I still do feel quite a bit
23:09:51 <sbp> just ten years ago, this was a kind of *dream*
23:10:20 <sbp> I literally can remember a fantasy I had in 1999 or so about a book which you can manipulate with your finger and it slides about all interactively
23:10:26 <Arnia> That feeling of the technological magic is closely related to metatropes I think.
23:10:34 <sbp> and I still remember what I thought about it before it got overlaid with actual technology
23:10:40 <Arnia> Yeah
23:10:50 <Arnia> Well, I remember being involved with h2g2 when it launched
23:11:31 <Arnia> and everyone was talking about how crazy it was to be building this huge knowledge repository out of public contributions and how, in a far distant future, people might be able to carry it about
23:11:50 <Arnia> Then, less than a decade later, I'm using Wikipedia on my iPhone at the bus stop
23:11:56 <sbp> bringing science-fiction to life!
23:12:01 <sbp> "don't panic"
23:12:02 <Arnia> and that really made me pause when I remembered
23:12:16 <Arnia> It also made me feel quite sad, because DNA would have loved to have seen that come to pass
23:12:21 <sbp> yeah...
23:12:22 <MaienM> '99... man, that sure is a long time ago
23:12:25 <Arnia> he worked to make it happen too
23:12:30 <sbp> bet he knew it was coming though
23:12:35 <Arnia> (which is unusual)
23:12:37 <Arnia> Yes, he did
23:12:44 <Arnia> but that's not the same as seeing it
23:12:47 <sbp> nope
23:12:53 <Arnia> and he died just a little too soon for him to see Wikipedia
23:13:12 <Arnia> Which is like h2g2 done on a larger scale
23:13:27 <sbp> probably my favourite invention of the last decade, thinking about it
23:13:44 <sbp> Wikipedia. it's brilliant. is anything else from that decade more useful?
23:13:53 <MaienM> yeah, wikipedia is a great source of information :)
23:13:58 <Arnia> Hm... probably not
23:14:18 <Arnia> Well, wikipedia coupled with an iPhone maybe :)
23:14:33 <MaienM> hell no, wiki wins hands down ;)
23:14:35 <sbp> MaienM: I remember in 2004 I went to a conference and a friend had downloaded the whole Wikipedia database onto a CD-R for me. back then that was quite something!
23:14:48 <Arnia> MaienM: I mean, being able to use WP on an iPhone
23:14:56 <MaienM> ah, right
23:14:59 <Arnia> As in, bringing the Guide to life
23:15:01 <MaienM> yeah, I agree with that
23:15:22 <MaienM> hehe, I doubt it'd fit on a cd now sbp ;)
23:15:27 <sbp> nope
23:16:25 <Arnia> 5GB compressed for just the articles without talk or user pages
23:16:36 <Arnia> 20 times that uncompressed
23:16:39 <Arnia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_database
23:16:54 <Arnia> oh, and that's just the current revisions too
23:17:01 <MaienM> hehe
23:17:15 <Arnia> ah, and just the English wiki
23:17:19 <Arnia> bloody hell
23:17:26 <MaienM> you'd probably need >1TB for all revisions+user pages+stuff
23:17:26 <Arnia> How do the dbpedia folks cope?
23:17:38 <MaienM> with coffee.... lots of coffee
23:18:01 <sbp> gah, power interruption again
23:18:27 <Arnia> What amazes me is that we have become so used to this relentless pace of technological development that the iPad got a 'meh' from a lot of techies
23:19:05 <Arnia> This thin little slate which can play games and has a smooth multitouch UI and lets you hold the world's largest library in your hands... and it gets a meh
23:19:06 <sbp> I don't think that's due to the relentless pace
23:19:09 <Arnia> That's astonishing
23:19:16 <sbp> I see it as a symptom of Critic Problem
23:19:24 <sbp> which is a well known thing from the humanities
23:19:32 <Arnia> Oh?
23:19:58 <MaienM> the iPad became a huge hype
23:20:03 <MaienM> and it disappointed
23:20:05 <MaienM> simple as that
23:20:14 <sbp> basically for a critic to be "good", they have to either slate something entirely or heap tons of praise on it. because who wants to read a wishy-washy critic? as you know, people sort classically, and "meh" for them is not a category: GOOD and BAD are too powerful
23:20:23 <treed> MaienM: Go back and look about the reaction to the iPod when it first came out.
23:20:28 <sbp> so, you'll notice with the iPad, people either loved it or hated it
23:20:31 <MaienM> I mean, when compared to a netbook, it is severly lacking on some points
23:20:37 <treed> sbp: Not true.
23:20:39 <sbp> there was no middle ground, even in Swhack
23:20:43 <treed> I am in neither state.
23:20:56 <sbp> treed: I'm talking generally though
23:20:56 <treed> I don't hate it, but I don't feel the urge to run right out and buy one.
23:21:01 <Arnia> MaienM: but it isn't a netbook
23:21:04 <Arnia> nor is it trying to be
23:21:06 <MaienM> it has its good points, but its bad points outweight them in my eyes
23:21:10 <sbp> also you're not a critic. generally I think it's unassailably true
23:21:16 <MaienM> except steve compared it to one
23:21:18 <[[sroracle]]> treed: I actually feel the same way
23:21:23 <treed> critics have to be fully positive or negative
23:21:23 <MaienM> he shouldn't have done that
23:21:32 <treed> a critic who says "meh" doesn't stick around for long
23:21:33 <MaienM> since it will now be compared to netbooks
23:21:39 <Arnia> MaienM: he did, but not how everyone is thinking
23:21:50 <Arnia> MaienM: which was a mistake, but not the mistake people think it is right now
23:22:02 <MaienM> well, I didn't follow it closely
23:22:15 <MaienM> just took a look at it when everything was said and done
23:22:15 <Arnia> MaienM: I was discussing this yesterday; it seems to be a symptom of a mis-invoked metaphor and human's antipathy towards abstraction
23:22:34 <Arnia> MaienM: he was comparing telic properties, not features
23:22:42 <Arnia> MaienM: not technical points
23:22:49 <MaienM> well people just want to have a referce point to compare it to, and he gave them one
23:22:56 <MaienM> unintentionally, that may be
23:23:02 <MaienM> but people won't care about that
23:23:29 <Arnia> MaienM: he gave them a reference point, but people took the wrong part of the comparison
23:23:32 <MaienM> anyway, even when not comparing it to a netbook
23:23:35 <Arnia> it is intriguing in itself
23:23:49 <MaienM> it still has the same idiot things the iPhone had
23:24:06 <MaienM> stuff that should have been there from the start that took years to get implemented
23:24:16 <MaienM> no multitasking
23:24:24 <Arnia> Multitasking annoys me
23:24:25 <MaienM> but I can see its appeal to some
23:24:32 <Arnia> Not its lack, but the attitude people have towards it
23:24:35 <MaienM> its just not a device that fits me
23:24:39 <Arnia> Multitasking is a solution, not a problem
23:24:48 <Arnia> Ask what the problem is, not assume a given solution
23:24:55 <Arnia> (this is related to intellectual inertia)
23:25:05 <MaienM> the problem is that I want to do multiple things at once
23:25:15 <MaienM> aka do multiple "tasks" at once
23:25:20 <sbp> tasks, eh? heh
23:25:27 <Arnia> Multitasking is polling
23:25:36 <MaienM> and it does not offer a solution for that, throught multitaking or otherwise
23:25:37 <Arnia> (multitasking as everyone is assuming)
23:25:44 <Arnia> No, but it is a hard problem
23:25:45 <sbp> what if you reshaped the size of the tasks?
23:25:47 <Arnia> not an easy one
23:25:53 <sbp> or their modularity, or the way they relate to one another
23:25:57 <Arnia> and it is a major research area
23:26:04 <MaienM> mhm
23:26:10 <MaienM> fact is, they don't have it in any form
23:26:17 <MaienM> which in my eyes is a defect
23:26:27 <MaienM> on the other hand, it might be just fine this way for most
23:26:28 <Arnia> Apple have shown many times they're willing to wait and find a good solution rather than implement a poor one now, because whatever they implement will tend to stick around a long time
23:26:46 <sbp> for example, before Gmail you might have said "well I can't run an email client and a web browser simultaneously", but of course now you can because you have a tabbed web browser...
23:27:13 <sbp> if you use Google Talk, you could use im there too
23:27:18 <Arnia> (which is a symptom of their history; they got burned by keyboard shortcuts in the early eighties)
23:27:24 <sbp> all "integrated" together
23:27:35 <sbp> (but this is a crud example)
23:27:59 <Arnia> anyway, most of my friends want an iPad so I'm fairly sure they'll sell well
23:28:01 <sbp> but I mean, what you think of tasks is coupled to interfaces at the moment really
23:28:15 <sbp> for example, IRC and email and Twitter are all communication...
23:28:22 <Arnia> And I'm also confident it is a revolutionary device; just people have a funny definition of revolutionary nowadays
23:28:27 <Arnia> sbp: yes
23:28:42 <Arnia> sbp: this is why I believe in horizontal integration of software
23:28:49 <Arnia> sbp: rather than vertical
23:28:53 <Arnia> (well, one of several reasons)
23:29:01 <sbp> Arnia: did you see that hilarious essay from Aaron?
23:29:15 <sbp> I think he's saying that horizontal integration is excessively evil
23:29:23 <Arnia> sbp: about the iPad? One of the few times I disagreed with him
23:29:48 <Arnia> Excessively evil?
23:30:00 <sbp> what I mean is I think he's suffering from the 80s sci-fi problem
23:30:13 <sbp> you know how before Futurama the future was always either a utopia or a dystopia
23:30:13 <Arnia> Explain...
23:30:18 <Arnia> oh yeah
23:30:26 <sbp> so he's imaginging the future of Apple as a dystopia
23:30:36 <sbp> whereas I suspect it'll be more Futurama-like
23:31:09 <sbp> yes, doors will open automatically for you
23:31:14 <sbp> but people will get trapped in 'em
23:31:22 <Arnia> I suspect it will be what it is... if people don't feel the benefits of an integrated ecosystem are worth the costs, they won't buy into it
23:31:30 <sbp> actually thinking about it that's already true
23:31:40 <sbp> the automatic doors I walk through the most right now are shit
23:31:43 <sbp> their reaction time is so slow
23:31:52 <sbp> if I didn't stop at the speed I walk, I'd walk straight into them
23:32:07 <Arnia> Yeah, same
23:32:22 <MaienM> I usually miss them by a few cm
23:32:25 <sbp> hehe
23:32:35 <Arnia> With regards to multitasking, I think GCD hints at things quite a bit
23:32:44 <sbp> GCD?
23:32:53 <Arnia> Grand Central Dispatch
23:32:57 <sbp> oh yeah, thanks
23:33:04 <Arnia> The new concurrency API in OS X
23:33:12 <sbp> yeah sorry, that's saturated with Global Cool Down for me
23:33:12 <Arnia> Why do you need a process polling constantly?
23:33:52 <sbp> polling confuses me massively
23:33:53 <Arnia> An MVC application will change the state as a result of either a UI signal or an OS signal
23:34:01 <Arnia> The rest of the time, why does the process need to exist?
23:34:16 <nslater> what you talking about chaps?
23:34:24 <sbp> Futurama
23:34:29 <nslater> really?
23:34:38 <sbp> yes, but metaphorically
23:35:02 <sbp> comparing the immediate technological future to Futurama
23:35:17 <Arnia> To me, process-based concurrency of applications (note, this doesn't apply to system services which have a different purpose and dynamic to MVC user applications) is wasteful
23:35:44 <Arnia> but if they implemented it in iPhone OS then they'd need to keep it forever more because app developers would assume it
23:36:42 <sbp> I can't even really imagine it yet
23:36:44 <Arnia> they'd assume their application was running constantly (well, timesharing constantly) which leads to certain data flows that only work with that assumption
23:36:48 <sbp> the iPhone isn't really a workstation
23:36:51 <sbp> but the iPad will be
23:36:55 <Arnia> Ok, imagine this
23:37:05 <MaienM> more so than the iPhone, thats for sure
23:37:41 <Arnia> Instead of running constantly, with an event loop, instead the process only exists when it has to do something in response to a signal
23:37:49 <Arnia> Instead of polling, events are pushed
23:37:59 <sbp> oh, no, I understand that
23:38:13 <sbp> I mean I can't imagine my workflow on an iPad shaped (cognitively as well as physically) device
23:38:30 <sbp> I can't imagine actual requirements, problems, and opportunities that would come out of that
23:38:34 <sbp> well obviously I can imagine some
23:38:36 <Arnia> NSOperations can be registered for certain OS level events (like geolocation or timers or the sound buffer emptying)
23:38:41 <sbp> but I get the feeling I'm missing some crucial ones
23:39:35 <Arnia> The memory is kept resident, but the code is divided into sections, only some of which need to be loaded at a time
23:39:48 <Arnia> and the code doesn't need to be polled, it is only called as needed
23:39:51 <Arnia> Lazy execution
23:40:25 <MaienM> makes sense
23:40:32 <Arnia> I think this would be impossible if the OS had allowed traditional co-op or pre-emptive multitasking with polling event loops
23:40:35 <MaienM> for programs running in the background anyway
23:40:46 <Arnia> So, as long as those don't exist... I'm hopeful
23:41:00 <Arnia> MaienM: but any program you're not using right now is a background program
23:41:18 <Arnia> The UI is just a datamodel
23:41:32 <Arnia> can be kept resident
23:41:51 <Arnia> The polling code of the traditional event loop is the battery killer
23:41:54 <MaienM> depends, if more than one app is shown at once it may or may not be a background app
23:42:08 <Arnia> I think the UI will remain 'one app visible'
23:42:09 <sbp> you know what, I didn't even realise the iPhone didn't have multitasking until I exited a game to change an album, and then it didn't keep the state in the game
23:42:12 <Arnia> and I quite like that
23:42:16 <Arnia> it makes it far more tangible
23:42:19 <sbp> and that's only due to bad design in the game app!
23:42:21 <MaienM> if you have mplayer running side by side with xchat, mplayer won't be background
23:42:29 <MaienM> ah, yes for the iPad that makes sense
23:42:35 <MaienM> I was speaking more generally here
23:42:46 <Arnia> Oh, I wasn't suggesting this for a desktop
23:42:51 <Arnia> but we're dealing with a new sort of device
23:43:04 <sbp> reminds me of tab caching
23:43:09 <Arnia> and I think this sort of lazy concurrency model fits that sort of device very well
23:43:11 <sbp> I keep trying not to use so many tabs
23:43:17 <sbp> I keep trying to use history instead of tabs
23:43:28 <sbp> I figure that tabs are just cached history
23:43:35 <sbp> and that the web is so fast now that I can just use the history
23:43:37 <sbp> but it's not true
23:43:46 <sbp> it's not true because tabs are actually a selective history
23:44:01 <sbp> like a kind of local bookmarks set distributed over recent history
23:44:05 <MaienM> and tabs can have information not stored in history in them too
23:44:10 <sbp> with a better UI than history, and the cache advantage
23:44:19 <sbp> yeah, though I think that's usually a minor thing
23:44:21 <Arnia> MaienM: well, you could add that to the history
23:44:21 <sbp> though, you know what
23:44:27 <MaienM> depends
23:44:31 <sbp> there is one really important bit of information that they do have
23:44:32 <MaienM> in most cases it might be
23:44:44 <Arnia> I said could, not that it is a good idea :)
23:44:48 <sbp> name what the most important kinds of information stored in a tab are
23:44:53 <sbp> bet you don't hit the most important one!
23:45:06 <sbp> (it's a "so important and so obvious that you won't think of it" sort of thing)
23:45:10 <Arnia> The URL, the position on the page, uh...
23:45:13 <MaienM> but if you're writing a blog post, the information in that tab is quite important, and that makes the tab more than just cached history
23:45:15 <sbp> heh, Arnia got it
23:45:21 <sbp> position on page I was thinking
23:45:44 <Arnia> MaienM: yeah, but that could be put in the history
23:45:49 <MaienM> mhm
23:45:56 <Arnia> there is no reason why the history can't be a cache of interactions
23:46:04 <sbp> so basically yeah, with a slightly augmented history...
23:46:05 <Arnia> just cos no one does it now...
23:46:12 <MaienM> that could make the history unnecessary big though
23:46:14 <sbp> basically you'd need some way to "bookmark" history items
23:46:21 <Arnia> but yeah, the history could also store the position
23:46:23 <sbp> and to cache the state
23:46:29 <sbp> yeah
23:46:32 <MaienM> since you won't really have need for the information in that blog post once you submitted it
23:47:06 <sbp> MaienM: text entry actually saved in tabs I think is extremely minimal
23:47:09 <Arnia> MaienM: well, if it is an HTTP POST, I'd assume that should the POST be successful that the information had left the system and needn't be cached again
23:47:18 <sbp> yeah
23:47:22 <Arnia> (it was already stored on the web)
23:47:25 <MaienM> mhm, makes sense
23:47:28 <sbp> basically if you're typing in information you're usually intending to use it
23:47:35 <sbp> as soon as you use it, it doesn't need to be cached any more
23:47:44 <sbp> so I might have a tab open with a half finished blog post in it
23:47:52 <Arnia> I look at the web in a very odd way however
23:47:53 <sbp> and if I forgot to finish and post it, then yes, that'd be wasted
23:48:00 <sbp> but usually I'd presuambly get back to it
23:48:14 <sbp> in actual practice, I can't think of many times when I've entered a lot of text into a tab and then abandoned it
23:48:15 <Arnia> (hell, I look at everything is a wonky way)
23:48:28 <Arnia> uh, in
23:48:33 <MaienM> I have, a few times
23:48:41 <sbp> even your prepositions... :-)
23:48:58 <sbp> MaienM: a few times, sure. but enough to cause bloat?
23:49:01 <MaienM> but yes, that makes sense
23:49:04 <MaienM> nah
23:49:06 <Arnia> I still favour the historical graph visualisation rather than tabs
23:49:12 <sbp> imagine if you lost a megabyte of text per year that way...
23:49:22 * Arnia really must program a web browser that uses that visualisation; been meaning to for about three years now
23:49:29 <sbp> most people aren't going to notice a megabyte larger browser installation
23:49:31 <MaienM> my IRC logs are probably more of a space waste than that
23:49:34 <sbp> aye
23:50:02 <MaienM> anyway, as interesting as this all is
23:50:08 <sbp> so I still can't wean myself off of tabs. sigh
23:50:11 <MaienM> I'm going to get out of here before you guys break my brain
23:50:15 <sbp> hehe. see ya!
23:50:20 <Arnia> come back soon
23:50:22 <sbp> yeah
23:50:45 <sbp> Arnia: reminds me, by the way
23:50:55 <Arnia> sbp: well, you could if we were to build a browser with a better model :)
23:50:57 <sbp> I was thinking about redesigning computers from scratch the other day
23:51:06 <sbp> a common fantasy. unlimited budget, what would I do?
23:51:08 <Arnia> (we already have webkit available and easily integratable)
23:51:12 <Arnia> yeah?
23:52:00 <sbp> and I realised I'd want all of the basic computer architecture expressed in terms of really beautiful graphic design work. so modules would be documented in terms of flowcharts and arrows and stuff... but I mean I'd hope they'd introduce brand new *awesome iconography* and stylography and design idioms for expressing the design of the system
23:52:06 <sbp> and basically make the whole thing a work of art
23:52:12 <sbp> of course such a "diagram" would be interactive
23:52:18 <Arnia> hehe
23:52:21 <sbp> and would be the primary means of browsing the code
23:52:42 <sbp> I could imagine it'd be fractal
23:52:48 <Arnia> sounds like subtext merged with puredata or quartz composer
23:52:52 <sbp> so you'd zoom into one module, and the more you zoomed in, the more of its bits you'd see
23:52:55 <sbp> subtext?
23:53:06 <Arnia> .g subtext programming language
23:53:06 <phenny> Arnia: http://subtextual.org/
23:54:04 <sbp> ah! I know about Jonathan Edwards's work oddly enough
23:54:08 <sbp> thanks to tav
23:54:19 <sbp> I didn't know about subtext though, heh
23:54:35 <sbp> so er... yeah, what you said, heh
23:54:38 <sbp> hmm
23:54:49 <sbp> yeah, nice dream
23:55:29 <tav> hmz, you didn't know about subtext ?
23:55:34 <sbp> nope
23:55:38 <tav> heh, you've sure read papers on it ;p
23:55:39 <sbp> you don't tell me anything! :-)
23:55:51 <nslater> yo
23:55:56 <tav> ye ye!
23:55:57 <sbp> yeah, I didn't know those papers were part of a larger system
23:55:58 <nslater> i should stop just saying yo
23:56:01 <nslater> yo!
23:56:02 <sbp> put it down to skimfail
23:56:07 <sbp> yo nslater
23:56:21 <sbp> I just look at the pretty pictures
23:56:25 <nslater> today is a crapy day, but i wish i knew why
23:56:37 <tav> damn, sorry, i should've been a better evangelist for mister edwards
23:56:40 <nslater> well, i did come up with an idea for a story, and i guess that's only happened once in my life
23:56:41 <sbp> I pronounce that in my head as cray-pee
23:56:43 <nslater> but still
23:57:10 <tav> the lead character gets raped?
23:57:17 <nslater> what.
23:57:33 <nslater> there is no rape, or even sex in my story. no. sorry to disapoint
23:57:45 <tav> damn
23:57:47 <sbp> sounds unrealistic
23:57:51 <nslater> there is romance
23:57:53 <nslater> but not as you know it
23:57:55 <tav> oh god
23:57:58 <sbp> very unrealistic
23:58:08 <sbp> romance without sex!
23:58:14 <sbp> what are you, Tolkien or something?
23:58:25 <nslater> im sure there might be sex, but im not going to narrate it. you can infer it if you like
23:58:29 <nslater> via fan fiction or what ever
23:58:41 <sbp> there is going to be so much yiff
23:58:51 <nslater> there is no explicit yiff in this story
23:58:52 <tav> right....
23:58:54 <nslater> or implicit for that matter
23:59:03 * Arnia ponders web browsers
23:59:05 <sbp> yes, wait for the fans
23:59:19 <Arnia> I think I've got a good UI in mind
23:59:29 <nslater> you could do a cameo if you like sbp, as long as it involves yiff
23:59:35 <Arnia> Might sketch it now...
23:59:44 <Arnia> give me a few minutes
23:59:45 <tav> that's what she said!
23:59:54 <sbp> Arnia: argh, was just about to go